Hi Jay, I think I'll check his wire connections at all the connection points first, and then the next time I'm in the area, bring my Fluke (which DOESN'T measure PF) for a closer look. Believe it or not, his meter is one of those mini GB thingies, analog of course, that would be better as a paper weight. The whole problem is really a hard thing to ferret out with face flies buzzing around your ears and eyes. :-(
Matt ---- jay peltz <j...@asis.com> wrote: > Hi Matt, > > I would try a few things, but its very curious to me that the inverter > won't even get a try out of the motor. > I've seen plenty of motors not work, but they tried to start. > > And given the 7k genny starts it, the 4k inverter should start it too. > I would check the current under load and surge if possible. > Check the battery voltage. > Could be a bad cap on the motor too. > > I've got a new meter that measures PF on the way, just for problems > like this. > > jay > > peltz power > > > > On Jul 30, 2009, at 4:03 PM, Matt wrote: > > > Unh - hunh, but it will run on the generator. If it didn't, I would > > go for the bad starter or motor, but it "seems" like the PF could be > > an issue?? > > > > Matt T > > ---- boB Gudgel <b...@midnitesolar.com> wrote: > >> Matt wrote: > >>> Possibly a PF question, or maybe one for Magnum - boB, > >>> > >>> One of the guys at work is (almost) running a 3/4 hp sub pump with > >>> a Magna AE 48. Or rather, he isn't. According to him when he first > >>> fired it up, it operated the pump just fine. The next time he > >>> tried, though. he couldn't even get a buzz out of the starter. No > >>> workee. > >>> > >> Sounds kind of like a "pump is broken or worn out" problem, doesn't > >> it ? > >> > >> If there is enough ac voltage applied to the pump, the it should do > >> ~something~, or lights should dim or some > >> kind of sign should show itself, wouldn't you think ? Otherwise, I > >> would suspect it might be a surge problem. > >> > >> Is there a pilot light or something ? Maybe a fuse blew or breaker > >> tripped somewhere ? (when the pump went off?) > >> > >> Doesn't sound like a PF problem though... However, since you mention > >> it, with loads that are not a 1.0 power factor, > >> at least for displacement power factor, when reactive phase shift is > >> involved, the inverter must be able to "sink" current > >> from the stored reactive energy as well as be a source to the motor. > >> The Magnum does that just fine, as does any other > >> decent inverter. > >> > >> Maybe Tony, Eldon or Gary at Magnum has seen this before ? > >> 425-353-8833 > >> > >> boB > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> The inverter runs all the other loads in the house fine, just not > >>> the pump. He can run the pump directly from a 7 kW generator with > >>> no issues. > >>> So, do you think we're looking at a power factor deficit,(I think > >>> not), a motor starter problem or an inverter issue? I have to > >>> admit to being somewhat baffled by this one because it ran the > >>> pump once, but not after. > >>> > >>> Matt T > >>> > >>> > >>> ---- boB Gudgel <b...@midnitesolar.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> boB Gudgel wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>> So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is > >>>>>> always best > >>>> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) > >>>> power, or > >>>> VA to reactive power >>(VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That > >>>> will > >>>> work in all cases. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> OOOps ! See, this can get confusing. Reverse what I just > >>>> said Power > >>>> Factor... " Definition: The ratio of true power to apparent > >>>> power" as > >>>> David Brearley had just posted. Otherwise, that calculation can > >>>> give > >>>> you an answer that is GREATER than 1.0 and you don't want that ! > >>>> > >>>> Had to eat some of my words. I just wanted to point out that the > >>>> phase > >>>> shift method was called DPF. Didn't Ian Woodenden do an article > >>>> on PF > >>>> recently too ? If not, he or someone probably should in one of > >>>> the two > >>>> HP magazines. > >>>> > >>>> boB > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> R. Walters wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> Power factor expresses the time difference between voltage > >>>>>> peak and > >>>>>> current peak on each of their sine waves. If both current and > >>>>>> voltage > >>>>>> waves are "in time", (their wave peaks match up) power factor > >>>>>> is 1. > >>>>>> If one is ahead or behind the other, it's not. Think about an > >>>>>> electric motor: we hit it with a voltage wave, and a fraction > >>>>>> of a > >>>>>> second later, it actually moves, and the current wave happens. > >>>>>> There > >>>>>> is a little lag there. Resistive loads like lights have very > >>>>>> little > >>>>>> lag, and big electric motors coming up to speed can have > >>>>>> horrible PF. > >>>>>> > >>>>> This definition of power factor only applies for linear loads with > >>>>> only inductance or capacitance (with resistance) and is called > >>>>> "Displacement Power Factor (DPF) and you will see that on some > >>>>> power > >>>>> meters. > >>>>> > >>>>> For non-linear loads, like battery chargers or computer power > >>>>> supplies > >>>>> without PF Correction, the current waveform (on an O-scope) looks > >>>>> nothing like a sine or cosine wave. The current "spikes up" at > >>>>> the > >>>>> AC voltage peaks. It actually *looks like* it might be in > >>>>> phase, BUT > >>>>> the current and the voltage do NOT look the same. It's non- > >>>>> linear. > >>>>> Lower than 1.0 power factor for sure. > >>>>> > >>>>> For a grid tie inverter, resistive heater or any load that has a > >>>>> PF of > >>>>> 1.0, the current and voltage waveform will both look exactly > >>>>> the same > >>>>> AND there will be no phase shift. They are both linear and all > >>>>> current and voltage is in phase at every point in the AC cycle. > >>>>> > >>>>> So, because of the different ways of specifying PF, it is always > >>>>> best > >>>>> to think of Power Factor as being the ratio of real (in phase) > >>>>> power, > >>>>> or VA to reactive power (VARS or "Volt Ampere Reactive"). That > >>>>> will > >>>>> work in all cases. (Real Vs. Apparent power is the same thing). > >>>>> Apparent power is what you get when you multiply > >>>>> your RMS meter's Voltage by the RMS current and is called VA Volt > >>>>> Amperes) V x A will be the highest measured number, that is > >>>>> unless > >>>>> the PF = 1.0 in which > >>>>> case both will measure the same. > >>>>> > >>>>> Some of that measured VA, or apparent power will be "in phase" > >>>>> and is > >>>>> the "real" or "true" power. Some of that VA may be reactive, > >>>>> (inductive or capacitive that is) and is the "out of phase" > >>>>> portion. > >>>>> Capacitive and inductive reactance is ALWAYS 90 degrees out of > >>>>> phase > >>>>> in current and voltage.... It's just a matter of how MUCH of your > >>>>> power is 0 degrees phase shift and how MUCH of that VA is + or > >>>>> - 90 > >>>>> degrees out of phase. If ALL of the current is in phase with the > >>>>> voltage, then > >>>>> the power factor is 1.0. That is, if you lay them on top of each > >>>>> other, they will look the same on an oscilloscope if power > >>>>> factor = 1.0 > >>>>> > >>>>> It can get way more complicated that this too, but that's > >>>>> basically > >>>>> it. Feel free to add to this. > >>>>> > >>>>> boB > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> power meters. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> There is much more to it, with reactance, "real" and "imaginary" > >>>>>> numbers?!, etc. but basically, we wrenches need to know that > >>>>>> everybody wants Power factor to be close to 1. > >>>>>> Obviously there isn't PF on DC, and it is my understanding that > >>>>>> most > >>>>>> inverters can operate at most power factors. Not 100% sure, but I > >>>>>> think GT inverters would help not hurt the PF problem in most > >>>>>> situations. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Correct me on any and all of this, Oh fellow wrenches, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> R. Walters > >>>>>> Solarray.com > >>>>>> NABCEP # 04170442 > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jul 30, 2009, at 9:19 AM, boB Gudgel wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Ron Young wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ok, so all seem to be in agreement more or less. How do I > >>>>>>>> break it > >>>>>>>> to British Columbia Hydro? :-| > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I think they must be misunderstanding what they are asking > >>>>>>>> for but > >>>>>>>> the question is in the section for PV and on the same line as > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> total output in Kwh of the PV. Power Factor % > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> It was most likely just a trick question. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> You're gonna fool them, though ! :) > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> boB > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I'll contact them and see where this goes but I don't fully > >>>>>>>> understand what power factor is which will make it hard to > >>>>>>>> argue my > >>>>>>>> case. My understanding is that it is the difference between > >>>>>>>> what > >>>>>>>> the utility supplies to a residence vs. the actual loads > >>>>>>>> being used > >>>>>>>> by that residence expressed as a percentage. I came across the > >>>>>>>> following course offering by SEI that discusses Power Factor > >>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>> reference to PV: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> POWER FACTOR AS IT RELATES TO SOLAR INSTALLATIONS Presented By: > >>>>>>>> Michael Smith of Alpine Management Systems > >>>>>>>> This session will deal with power factor: What is power factor? > >>>>>>>> What causes low power factor? Why improve your power factor? > >>>>>>>> This > >>>>>>>> session will explain the role of power factor correction as it > >>>>>>>> applies to solar installations. There are currently over 67,000 > >>>>>>>> KVAR installations in 26 countries resulting in phenomenal > >>>>>>>> energy > >>>>>>>> savings with a corresponding reduction in greenhouse gas > >>>>>>>> emissions. > >>>>>>>> Session includes several KVAR installations and the resultant > >>>>>>>> savings. > >>>>>>>> http://www.solarenergy.org/workshops/docs/industry08_trainingdetails.pdf > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Ron > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On 30-Jul-09, at 7:43 AM, Wind-sun.com wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> There is no such thing as a power factor for DC or for panels. > >>>>>>>>> .................................................................................................. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Northern Arizona Wind & Sun - Electricity From The Sun Since > >>>>>>>>> 1979 > >>>>>>>>> Solar Discussion Forum: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/ > >>>>>>>>> .................................................................................................. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>>>>>>>> *From:* Ron Young <mailto:solarea...@solareagle.com> > >>>>>>>>> *To:* RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenc...@lists.re- > >>>>>>>>> wrenches.org> > >>>>>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, July 29, 2009 5:45 PM > >>>>>>>>> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Power Factor > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> Can anyone point me in the direction to find the power > >>>>>>>>> factor for > >>>>>>>>> Sanyo HIT N 205 panels? The utility is requesting it on a > >>>>>>>>> net > >>>>>>>>> metering interconnection application. 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