HI Peter;
First I agree with almost everything you said. However, I think you
took Joel's DIY comment out of context. What he and I are saying, is
that we both have customers that are more knowledgeable than many of
the "Professional" installers/ designers/ sales people we are seeing
in today's market. I was recently at a solar meeting where 25 out of
the 30 people in the room had been in the business for less than a
year. These guys are running around today doing site evaluations,
design quotes on the spot, etc. Very scary.
Neither Joel nor I are saying DIY guys are qualified, but we are
saying we know a few that are closer than these rooms full of
newbies. Professional should mean "dedicated one's career to this
field" but right now, "professional" just means working for money.
Also once someone has some minimum qualifications to actually start
working in this field on their own (ie, licensed electrician with
extensive solar training), shouldn't their first solo job be on their
own house, not someone else's?
Almost everyone on this list went into solar because we knew it was
the right thing to do, but that paradigm is changing very fast to
"this is the next way to make a fast buck". I'm very discouraged that
we can't do more to change that. As Marco mentioned: it’s inevitable
that a serious fire, injury, or death due to incompetence is gonna
whack us all over the head soon.
It will hurt our industry, but then maybe we can get back on the
track of true professionalism that this list and all of you represent.
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
On Jul 19, 2009, at 6:43 AM, Peter Parrish wrote:
Joel,
As a friend, I have enjoyed your perspectives on our business, even
though I usually don’t agree with everything you say. I have never
taken you to task in a public forum, but I can’t let your latest
post go without comment.
There is a reason we call these guys DIYs. They have no experience
and limited knowledge; in other words they are not professionals.
And, by the way, what do you mean by “so-called professional”. I
can’t believe you tell some one who wants to get into the solar
business to first put one on their home as a DIY. Could you in good
conscience recommend someone who has never stepped foot on a roof
in their lives to spend a week on one in 90-100 degree weather, in
physical contact with modules and other components that are cooking
at 145 degrees, and DC voltages approaching 600 V? Squinting at a
layout/schematic the likes of which they have never seen before?
Someone who hasn’t used anything more than an 8 ft step ladder or
doesn’t know what a safety harness is?
You also oversimplify: an appropriate apprenticeship for an
installer is not the same as that for a design engineer or a
salesperson.
You don’t need to have installed the PV system you own to
appreciate how it works…
I am personally aware of three DIY solar projects as well as a
dozen or so contractor-installed systems that we have been called
out to troubleshoot and fix. Even the best DIY project was worse
than worst contractor-installed job.
All,
But here is my main point. I have a pretty good test of what is key
in this PV business of ours. I get a call at least once a week from
some one who wants me to “help them with a PV installation”. In
addition to DIYs, I get these calls from B and C-10 contractors,
facilities managers, apartment owners, and the like. They will take
care of [fill in the part that they think they have covered] and
they only need help with [fill in the part they need help on].
They usually have spent some time on the internet and have an idea
of what modules to use and have teased a quote out of a
manufacturer or distributor for “5-50 kW” of PV; they usually have
some un(der)employed electricians who can read a blueprint, bend
and hang conduit and pull wire.
What they don’t know is how to
(1) Specify an appropriately sized system
(2) Design a system (panel orientation, shading, structural
calcs, string sizing, ampacity calcs, over current protection,
grounding),
(3) Specify all the speciality BoS components or where to buy
them.
(4) Put together a permit package (that will pass ARB,
Planning, Safety and Fire department muster)
(5) Perform the mechanical side of the installation (read roof
penetrations)
They usually know about the 30% ITC (or grant) but they just need a
little help with the rebate application, which usually means they
have some un(der) employed back office folks as well.
So for me it boils down to (1) Performance-optimized, Code-
compliant Design (Bill Brooks, are you listening?), (2) Plans &
Permitting and (3) Mechanical Installation
Moreover, what they usually have in the back of their mind is to
buy this expertise once from us and then do it all themselves from
then on. Some have audacity to use the phrase “I’d like to pick
your mind”. Can you imagine that?
I second the comment about off-grid, and even though we install
grid-tied, battery back-up systems a fair amount – I still don’t
pretend to understand the complete off-grid scenario well enough to
properly design one.
Regards,
- Peter
<image003.gif>Peter T. Parrish, Ph.D., President
California Solar Engineering, Inc.
820 Cynthia Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90065
CA Lic. 854779, NABCEP Cert. 031806-26
peter.parr...@calsolareng.com
Ph 323-258-8883, Mobile 323-839-6108, Fax 323-258-8885
From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-
boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Joel Davidson
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 8:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
I agree. I have DIY customers who know more about PV systems than a
lot of so-called PV professionals. Designing and installing PV
systems is a continuous learning experience. We are practitioners
because, like doctors, we practice our trade, expand our knowledge,
and hone our skills. I tell people who wants to get in the PV
business to put a PV system on their own home. People who tell me
that they want to sell PV but can not go solar personally for
whatever reason have less credibility. They get less respect from
prospective customers who use the same reasons or excuses for not
going solar. They either don't last long in the business or are in
it only for the money. Granted, there are less operational nuances
to a batteryless, grid-tied PV system than a battery-based system
or wind or water generator, but living with your work is essential.
It makes you keenly aware of unique subtleties and helps you better
understand your customers concerns.
Joel Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: R. Walters
To: RE-wrenches
Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:05 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Installers Education
For Off grid, no one should even attempt being a designer/
installer without living for a full year on their own off grid system.
GT w/ batteries, you need off grid smarts and understand GT.
Training newbies, I can't imagine them being able to do anything
other than schlep modules/ do grunt work for a couple of years.
I could see a licensed electrician with a year of full time
training being able to do GT w/o batteries.
Most of the market and all the growth is in the GT w/o batteries,
so I think your training should concentrate there.
I've taught a semester long PV class, and all I was able to do was
create well educated consumers.
R. Walters
Solarray.com
NABCEP # 04170442
On Jul 17, 2009, at 9:44 AM, Keith Cronin wrote:
Hi gang
I was wondering, what percentage do you believe represents the
ratio of classroom training to field training for PV and what
percentage you believe should be performed by licensed electricians
vs what is deemed mechanical work?
Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom- electrician
___% field- electrician
Residential Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom- mechanical
___% field- mechanical
Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom-electrician
___% field-electrician
Commercial Grid Tie w/out batteries
___% classroom-mechanical
___% field-mechanical
Residential GT with batteries
____% classroom-electrician
____% field-electrician
Residential GT with batteries
____% classroom-mechanical
____% field-mechanical
Any takers on the off grid market percentages?
Commercial w/ batteries is utility scale and I don't think it can
be quantified today as the projects are generally design build and
perhaps hard to put an exact # on these.
Thanks
Keith
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