Max - I haven't looked up that NEC reference - but I don't think there is anything wrong with using the OutBack PSX-240 for this application.
What I think the inspector wants you to use is a full isolation transformer to provide a separately derived neutral - the OutBack PSX-240 is an "autotransformer" type which does not provide a separate neutral - the neutral is common on the input and output - as is the Hot Leg 1 conductor - the Hot Leg 2 is "made" by the transformer and has to be kept separate from any other Hot Leg 2 in the system. Not a big deal. One issue here is what is the source? The back-up inverter or the grid-tie inverter? The neutral is derived from the back-up inverter... it's a matter of perspective perhaps. The problem with using an isolation transformer in this application is that you will have MUCH lower efficiency - the losses are due to both lower full power efficiency (higher resistive losses) and higher idle power consumption (magnetic losses). I tested a commonly available 4kW isolation transformer years ago and it drew over 40 watts just powered up (idle) and the full power efficiency was about 96% (160 watts at 4000 watts). This compares to the OutBack PSX-240 which is 6kW rated and has only 10 watts of loss at idle and a through but efficiency of around 98% - so about 80 watts or so at 4000 watts. I would advise talking with the inspector more on this issue. Christopher Christopher Freitas Director of Research and Development OutBack Power Systems, Inc. cfrei...@outbackpower.com Tel 360 435 6030 Cell 360 202 4239 19009 62nd Ave NE Arlington WA 98223 USA www.outbackpower.com -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Max Issacs Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:22 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island with Outback Transformer Howdy Everybody. I am working on a grid tied battery back up system with a Sunny Island 4248U, a Sunpower 5000x and an Outback PSX 240 autotransformer. I am using the transformer to step down the 240v power from the Sunpower to be compatable with the Sunny Island which only accepts 120v. The electrical inspector is telling me that I cannot use the Outback as it does not derive a neutral from the source feed referencing NEC 215.11. Has any one else run into this problem or know of another transformer that would work? Thanks, Max Isaacs, Solar Technician Southern Energy Management (O) 919.836.0330 (C) 919.538.9712 (F) 919.836.0305 101 Kitty Hawk Drive Morrisville, NC 27560 www.southern-energy.com -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 7:58 AM To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Subject: RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 2, Issue 171 Send RE-wrenches mailing list submissions to re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://lists.re-wrenches.org/listinfo.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org You can reach the person managing the list at re-wrenches-ow...@lists.re-wrenches.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of RE-wrenches digest..." When responding to posts within the Digest, be sure to restore the Subject: line to the original, and please edit out any extraneous lines from the quoted message. Today's Topics: 1. Re: FW: Panel Fire (David Brearley) 2. Re: FW: Panel Fire (Wind-sun.com) 3. Re: another firefighter mis-information link (was: Panel Fire) (Allan Sindelar) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:57:00 -0600 From: David Brearley <david.brear...@solarprofessional.com> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel Fire To: <al...@positiveenergysolar.com>, RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <c5b9245c.26d1%david.brear...@solarprofessional.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Allan, there are 4 modules pictured in the ?before? photo, not 8. The after photo show the ?good? modules, the ones that did not burn. This suggests there are 4 module each on two separate roof faces. Please have another look at the before picture and count the frames. In the before picture each 250 W mystery module is supported at 4 corners only. They are some sort of large format modules. Nothing I can find online matches these characteristics, especially the superstrate material. Please re-read the homeowner?s account in these various postings as well. Sundiego indicates that the module superstrate is not glass, but some other material. Apparently it is a material that melts when exposed to flame. It sure isn?t glass, that?s pretty clear by the photos and the written account. This does not look like an elaborate hoax to me. It does look, as BB points out, like a potential crime scene, a fraud at the very least. Something was misrepresented to this customer. It?s pretty apparent that these modules are not listed and identified for the application. The installation isn?t vaguely appropriate. It?s just dumb luck?literally?that the house didn?t burn down. Clearly the narrator is unreliable, but I don?t think it is malicious, just ignorance. The dude?s a ?solar newbie? and his house caught on fire. That?s what it looks like to me. David On 2/11/09 6:57 PM, "Allan Sindelar" <al...@positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > I guess I'm not the only one who's suspicious of this whole story. This came > to me off list. Some of the post here doesn't jive - it's pretty clear there's > no glass, and the blurry corner doesn't look it to me. > > -----Original Message----- > From: > > I may be very wrong here and I don?t mean to impugn anyone?s integrity but > don?t forget that in this era of digital animation movies you can?t always > believe what you see in photo either. (I'm sure no one here has ever > Photoshopped a photo to make it more presentable looking.) I couldn't help > but notice that the bottom right corner of the photo was surprisingly blurry > and indistinct. It is difficult to distinguish one thing from the next, when > just a few feet away but out of the range of detail in the photo, things > seemed to be much clearer. I?ve never seen a photo look like that in > reality. It?s as if the roof and array have mysteriously melted together. > Also, I have never seen tempered glass melt in a low temperature fire. If > it were a high temperature fire the roof would not have survived. I think > that a great deal of caution is warranted especially considering the lack of > detail that the poster is giving about the panels, location, > installer/supplier, existence of another array etc. > --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Allan Sindelar <al...@positiveenergysolar.com> wrote: > One detail I haven't heard mentioned yet and am curious about - the photo of > the fire damage appears to show the corner of another west(?)-facing array. I > find it curious that the system owner described a 2 kW system made up of > eight 250W(!) modules, which are clearly visible in the topmost system photo. > There's just a whole lot that doesn't jive in this whole story. Scary to me . > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Home Power magazine > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Options & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List-Archive: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out participant bios: > www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/atta chme nts/20090212/a11d0d1c/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 00:07:38 -0700 From: "Wind-sun.com" <wind...@wind-sun.com> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel Fire To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <437dfdfe66a34c7bb4139e4479bdf...@warren> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel FireA new term for bargain basement modules? ........................................................................ .... ...................... ----- Original Message ----- From: David Brearley To: al...@positiveenergysolar.com ; RE-wrenches Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 11:57 PM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] FW: Panel Fire each 250 W < mystery module > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/atta chme nts/20090212/7f991688/attachment-0001.htm> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 05:58:03 -0700 From: "Allan Sindelar" <al...@positiveenergysolar.com> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] another firefighter mis-information link (was: Panel Fire) To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> Message-ID: <e7f0bd42d304487080febb1243eeb...@allanlaptop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Kurt, Yeah, I did, and I tried to post a response. I had to register, and when I got to "Request a Reference", an apparent glitch kept me from proceeding. I finally gave up. Two of five comments debunk the article. One is by Dan Fink of Otherpower.com, and includes a link to his PowerPoint on the subject. Allan at Positive Energy. -----Original Message----- From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kurt Albershardt Did anyone else catch the link on that page to http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-pane ls-f or-firefighters ? On 2/11/09 6:48 PM, Michael Welch wrote: This seems corroborating. It has GOT to be the same situation: http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner~y2009m2d10-O ur-w edding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally <http://www.examiner.com/x-432-Wedding-and-Marriage-Examiner%7Ey2009m2d1 0-Ou r-wedding-anniversary-like-a-house-on-fire-literally> Search the page for "solar" to get to the crux of it Did anyone else catch the link on that page to http://www.firelink.com/training/articles/5689-the-dangers-of-solar-pane ls-f or-firefighters ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org/atta chme nts/20090212/1f1ca559/attachment.htm> ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org End of RE-wrenches Digest, Vol 2, Issue 171 ******************************************* No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.0.234 / Virus Database: 270.10.21/1945 - Release Date: 02/11/09 08:01:00 _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org MESSAGE CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This message (including attachments) is covered by the Electronic Communication Privacy Act, 18 U.S.C. sections 2510-2521, is confidential, and may also be protected by attorney-client or other privilege. If you believe that it has been sent to you in error, please do not read it. If you are not the intended recipient,you are hereby notified that any retention, dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. Please reply to the sender that you have received the message in error, then delete it. Thank you. _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Home Power magazine List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Options & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org
