And I expect you are right. Sadly at least one of us (me) somehow managed to remain ignorant of of some of it up to now. I had hoped for a more cogent explication of the rational and evidence for at least one of the positions. I now fear I will have to either buy back issues of BQ or remain uninformed.
On Aug 8, 7:43 am, jimD <rasterd...@comcast.net> wrote: > Ploughing old ground. > > Tubes - thin or fat. > Tires - skinny or fat. > Inflation - high or low. > > This has been debated on various fora over a span of several years, till all > that remains are beliefs, opinions, > fortified positions, and boredom. > > Seems this stuff needs to get batted around periodically. The Google already > has > most of what has been so assiduously argued here. > > I appreciate the different points of view and the methods used to arrive at > those beliefs > but sure can't understand the discussion getting 'heavy'. > > Sheesh , we're talking about bicycles. > > We will Ride what we like, believe what we want, none of it will amount to a > hill of beans > when seen in the context of (just) riding our bike/s. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it, > JimD > > On Aug 7, 2012, at 8:39 PM, ted wrote: > > > > > > > > > Call me lazy or incompetent but I can't find an explanation of why > > whoever coined the terms use as related to bicycles thought it was > > apt. Can anybody here explain why planing is an apt term for > > beneficial flexing of a bicycles main triangle? > > > On Aug 7, 11:31 am, Robert Zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> And if memory serves I might have seen the term in Bicycle Guide back in > >> the 80's > > >> Sent from my iPad > > >> On Aug 7, 2012, at 11:24 AM, Ryan Watson <rswat...@me.com> wrote: > > >>> Apologies if someone already mentioned this, but... > >>> Long before I ever heard the name Jan Heine or the term "planing," It was > >>> Grant Petersen who first brought the phenomenon to my attention. > >>> The 1992 Bridgestone catalog has an article on p. 34 explaining why they > >>> preferred skinny tubing on their bikes when the rest of the world was > >>> going OS. It's called "The Benefits of a Little Frame Flex" and compared > >>> it to jumping higher on a sprung wooden floor as opposed to a hard > >>> concrete floor. > >>> One quote: "A bike frame flexes under the pressure of pedaling, and, as > >>> it recovers from the flex, releases some of that energy to help you go." > >>> I've always wondered why Grant changed his mind and went with stiff OS > >>> tubing on Rivendell bikes. > > >>> Cheers, > >>> Ryan in Albuquerque > > >>> On Aug 7, 2012, at 6:28, ted <ted.ke...@comcast.net> wrote: > > >>>> "Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when > >>>> he was first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term > >>>> from boating." > > >>>> Interesting. It is precisely because of the terms use in boating that > >>>> I find his application perplexing and a source of confusion. > >>>> When a boat planes it is running more over the water than through it. > >>>> It's also a phenomena that requires a minimum speed to realize, and > >>>> there is a hump in resistance before reaching planing speeds where > >>>> resistance is greater than it is after you get the boat up and > >>>> planing. Seems like it just doesn't fit as a label for a desirable > >>>> oscillating bottom bracket motion. > > >>>> On Aug 6, 10:41 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > >>>>> Jan has tried to explain that, mainly he came up with the term when he > >>>>> was first thinking about the issue, IIRC. He borrowed the term from > >>>>> boating. > > >>>>> One problem is that what's stiff to Jan and Mark might be noodly to me, > >>>>> since I am probably 60 lbs heavier and 6" taller than they are. My > >>>>> "fastest" bike (according to my average speeds, anyway, but again there > >>>>> are too many uncontrolled variables) is my Ritchey, which also has the > >>>>> stiffest BB due to the ovalized seat tube. > > >>>>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 11:42 PM, ted <ted.ke...@comcast.net> wrote: > > >>>>>> Certainly fads or styles or whatever have ebbed and flowed over > >>>>>> whether or not a noodly frame is undesirable, or how stiff is stiff > >>>>>> enough, or if stiff is harsh and uncomfortable, or whatever, but I > >>>>>> think Jan is fairly unique in claiming categorically that the right > >>>>>> flex is faster, and enough faster that a stiff bike can't be a good > >>>>>> "performance" bike. > > >>>>>> Im still not quite sure exactly what he is advocating. If its about > >>>>>> beneficial interaction between pedaling action and bb flex I don't get > >>>>>> why thats called planing. Does somebody here know? > > >>>>>> On Aug 6, 8:55 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote: > >>>>>>> On Aug 6, 2012, at 9:32 PM, Steve Palincsar wrote: > > >>>>>>>> On Mon, 2012-08-06 at 19:21 -0700, ted wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> I wouldn't say a complete kook, but a bit kooky maybe. Certainly he > >>>>>>>>> even describes himself a well outside of mainstream thought on these > >>>>>>>>> topics. I suspect that "planing" is only mostly settled in the view > >>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>> those who believe Jan (which I doubt is a majority of any relevant > >>>>>>>>> group except perhaps BQ subscribers). > > >>>>>>>> Well outside the "stiffer is always better" school of thought, for > >>>>>>>> sure. > >>>>>>>> A downright heretic in that respect. As for the rest, don't be so > >>>>>>>> sure: > >>>>>>>> they referred to what he calls "planing" as "a lively ride" back in > >>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>> day, and bikes that had it were highly respected and enjoyed. > > >>>>>>> True enough. Various aspects of bike frame design have been serially > >>>>>>> overemphasized over the course of decades, including BB stiffness, > >>>>>>> chainstay length, chainstay and seatstay diameters, etc. The power > >>>>>>> loss from BB flex is probably close enough to nil as makes no > >>>>>>> difference, even with "noodly" frames. I like mine to be stiff > >>>>>>> enough to make derailleur rub rare because it's annoying, but I've > >>>>>>> never actually been able to feel any power loss from frame flex. > >>>>>>> Someone already mentioned Sean Kelly who won monuments and Classics, > >>>>>>> the maillot vert, the Vuelta a Espana, etc., on one of the most > >>>>>>> notoriously noodly frames ever made, the Vitus 979. If the frame > >>>>>>> flex handicapped him, well that's actually just kind of frightening... > > >>>>>>> Allan referenced the idea of a bike frame as a spring which is > >>>>>>> actually correct. It is a spring. There are several springs on a > >>>>>>> bike- the frame, the handlebars, the wheels (especially laterally but > >>>>>>> also radially), the saddle, etc. In the case of bars, frame and > >>>>>>> radial wheel flex the distances involved are tenths to hundreds of an > >>>>>>> inch. Lateral wheel flex, especially the rear wheel, can be > >>>>>>> relatively large (e.g., 1/8 to 1/4 inch) under normal use. A lot of > >>>>>>> these can be quantified with strain gauges, which might be an > >>>>>>> interesting study. Can "planing" be objectively measured and > >>>>>>> compared to the subjective experience? > > >>>>>>> Can all those things affect how a bike feels to ride? Maybe. I > >>>>>>> think that most are like the princess and the pea, but some people > >>>>>>> may be more sensitive to these sorts of inputs than me. We all have > >>>>>>> had the experience of "I like this bike and I don't like that bike." > >>>>>>> There are a lot of variables that go into that. Some of those might > >>>>>>> be exactly the kinds of thing Jan writes about, some may not. > > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>>>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > >>>>>> For more options, visit this group > >>>>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > >>>> -- > >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > >>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > >>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > >>>> For more options, visit this group > >>>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > >>> -- > >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > >>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > >>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >>> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > >>> For more options, visit this group > >>> athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "RBW Owners Bunch" group. > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. 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