Yes, "make yourself comfortable" is a fine philosophy to follow for bike fitment. I only want to add that it also requires some level of self-awareness, at least an ability to listen to your aching muscles and sore bones, and integrate what they're telling you into mechanical adjustments. In my own case, on the new-ish diagatube bike, I recently realized that the backs of my knees were feeling strained, and especially in comparison to the comfortable ride on the old-ish RBW LongLow. I decided to check saddle height, and quickly saw that I had mis-measured when setting up the new bike! I had duplicated the distance from BB to saddle, but had forgotten that I have slightly longer cranks on the new bike. Doh! Dropping the Brooks 2cm made a transformative difference, the ride is quite a bit nicer. Riding no-hands is also easier, I guess I'm not rocking my hips to reach the pedals.
- Andrew, Berkeley On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 10:36:09 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: > Jeremy illuminates some really good points. Particularly, I think the > main take home is that Trial and Error can be super productive, but it's > main value is knowing objectively what it is you are doing. The words I > associate with random adjustments with no rhyme or reason being "fiddling" > or "tinkering". As in, "I've been tinkering with my fit for weeks and > can't get comfortable. What am I doing wrong?" One of the things is > "tinkering". Have a plan and execute on the plan. Make a list and check > items off the list if that's the way you execute plans. > > There could be a good debate between Jeremy and Peter about saddle > fore-aft. Jeremy and others think there's one setup that's good and then > you work on the handlebars. Peter and others would say that the farther > down and out the bars are going to be, the more aft the saddle should be. > In other words, run the saddle farther back on drop bar setups and more > forward on uprights. > > The thing I'll add is that it's my observation that some people are just > bad at riding bicycles. It's easy to see. One person rides by and you can > see it in their form they are confident, relaxed, poised, athletic, > comfortable. The next person rides by and you can sense they are tense, > scared, uncomfortable. It can correlate with experience but I see folks > that have been riding bikes for 50 years and still look like they are doing > it wrong. I don't have any idea how to teach a person how to ride a > bicycle, but I know it when I see it. The most obvious thing to see for me > is an arched back. If your back is arched you are doing it wrong. There > are other things that are easy to see. > > The only common phrase that I think captures what I mean is what you tell > a guest that comes into your home. You tell them "Welcome! *Make > yourself comfortable*". I think some cyclists know how to make > themselves comfortable on their bike. Other cyclists simply don't. Those > that don't make themselves comfortable either CAN'T (because the bike > doesn't fit), or don't know they are supposed to make themselves > comfortable, or don't know how to make themselves comfortable. The point > I'm making is that a comfortable cyclist doesn't just passively deposit > their body onto a bike and the bike forces them to be comfortable. There > is some agency on the part of the cyclist to make themselves comfortable. > That's a skill that some people have and others learn. It probably is > also a muscle that some people have and other people train. Things like > "engaging the core" are behaviors that help a cyclist make themselves > comfortable. Making yourself comfortable can be work, and it can get > harder when you are tired. So, sometimes when a rider says "my saddle is > comfortable for up to two hours", it's possible that the rider sits > differently on the saddle after two hours, so the problem isn't > automatically the saddle; it could be the > fitness/endurance/flexibility/strength of the rider, which can all change. > > Bill Lindsay > El Cerrito, CA > On Wednesday, January 29, 2025 at 9:37:29 AM UTC-8 Jeremy Till wrote: > >> I'm also interested in this thread, and appreciate learning about other >> people's fit journeys through their cycling career. Like many, I have never >> had a professional fit, but I have thought a LOT about fit, perhaps to the >> point of over-obsessing about it. I don't recommend that, but I also agree >> that the surest way to be comfortable on the bicycle is through trial and >> error, critical thinking about your body and bike, and keeping an open >> mind. I also agree that what we're doing with our body off the bike has a >> major influence with how we feel on the bike. I've done yoga off and on for >> a number of years, and whenever I am consistently practicing yoga, being >> comfortable on the bike (or identifying what adjustments I need to make to >> do so) becomes easier. >> >> I've been thinking about fit in one way or another since I started >> building up my own bikes, which was almost 20 years ago now. I would say >> that my attention to fit ramped up around 12-13 years ago, when I had built >> up a couple of bikes that were supposed to fit me properly, but I wasn't >> really satisfied with the comfort I had achieved on them. My early >> experiments at that time had two major influences, namely Keith Bontrager's >> "The Myth of K.O.P.S <https://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html>" on >> Sheldon Brown's site and Grant's general approach to bike fitting at the >> time, which encouraged larger-than-average frames and higher handlebars. >> This coincided with me buying my first Rivendell, a 64cm Quickbeam >> <https://flic.kr/s/aHsjCb7qtE> (I had originally intended to buy a 62cm >> SimpleOne, but after measuring my PBH Vince thought it would be too small >> for me). Of course, I took both to an extreme probably not intended by >> either author, focusing on super high/upright handlebars and lots of >> seatpost setback (I bought multiple Nitto S84's during this period). This >> coincided with me buying my first Rivendell, a 64cm Quickbeam (I had >> originally intended to buy a 62cm SimpleOne, but after measuring my PBH, >> Vince thought it would be too small for me). Building up the Quickbeam and >> then a 64cm Surly Long Haul Trucker <https://flic.kr/s/aHsjG8XDnr>, both >> with upright bars, I ended up eschewing drop bars completely for a few >> years. I was basically happy with the LHT with both Albatross and Bosco >> bars, but was never really satisfied with how the QB felt, and I ended up >> selling it, a decision I sometimes regret. >> >> My upright-only period came to an end in 2016, when I rebuilt a Medici >> Pro Strada <https://flic.kr/s/aHskrQW4Gs> racing bike from the early >> 1980's to ride in Eroica California, a cycling event that required riders >> to be on vintage road or touring bikes. I stuck with drop bars on the bike >> to match the ethos of the event, and ended up being surprised with how >> comfortable and efficient I felt on the bike, which helped me in completing >> the ~120 mile route. Drop bars began to return to the rest of my stable, >> first on the Long Haul Trucker. That fit was successful enough that I used >> it as a guide to set up drop bars on my Rambouillet >> <https://flic.kr/s/aHsmqiuhka>, which I bought a couple of years later. >> The Rambouillet is now my bench mark, definitely the best-fitting and most >> comfortable road bike I have ever owned. Along with the return to drop >> bars, my saddle position moved forward again, away from the large setbacks >> I had sought during my upright era, and I moved towards somewhat narrower >> foam/gel saddles from WTB, away from the B.17's championed by Rivendell. >> >> These days, I would say that my bike fits are converging, meaning that in >> general I am seeking to replicate the basic body position achieved on my >> Rambouillet and LHT, with minor adjustments for handlebar type and intended >> use. I'm pretty confident setting up drop bar bikes for myself and find >> that I can achieve a satisfactory fit on them pretty consistently. Upright >> bar bikes, which I still prefer for commuting and errands, are a bit more >> of a challenge for me, ironically. While some might say that the short >> distances they are ridden would make fit less of an issue, I find that the >> short distances makes it harder to get a clear impression of what are >> issues caused by my bike setup rather than the inconsistent vagaries of >> living in a ~40 year old body. >> >> The convergence of my fits is guided by my realization that saddle >> position is one of the most important fit dimensions for me. I try to be >> consistent in saddle height, setback, and angle between my bikes, and find >> that once I have the saddle in the right place figuring out the handlebar >> position becomes a lot easier. Achieving consistency in saddle position has >> been facilitated by investing in an Abbey Bike Tools Fit Kit >> <https://www.abbeybiketools.com/collections/tools/products/saddle-fit>, >> which makes measuring all three saddle parameters easier. A related >> discovery is that if my hands, arms, and upper back are uncomfortable, I >> can usually improve things by *lowering* my handlebars, which helps me >> engage my core muscles better to relieve my hands and arms. This was a bit >> surprising since it went against Rivendell's basic philosophy that raising >> the handlebars increases comfort. I'm not saying that's wrong, more that we >> need to approach such ideas with nuance and critical thinking. >> >> I appreciate the chance to share some of my own fit journey, and look >> forward to discussing it more. This is has been an area I've wanted to >> discuss for a while. >> >> Jeremy Till >> Sacramento, CA >> >> On Sunday, January 26, 2025 at 10:54:59 PM UTC-8 chefd...@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> I'm curious about the collective opinion regarding professional bike >>> fitting, and pose these questions as one who has been riding for 50+ years >>> on mostly drop bar road bikes, without ever having been "fitted"... I'm >>> not particularly interested in increased performance, although I'd be happy >>> to ride faster/stronger in some situations - mostly, I'm concerned with >>> comfort. I'm used to, and have generally learned to live with certain aches >>> and pains after a good long ride, a sore back or neck for instance... sore >>> butt is not uncommon either. I follow the conventional rules for set-up >>> (ie, choose frame and saddle height based on PBH) and I tinker/ >>> swap/exchange parts for the fun of it, but haven't ever really experienced >>> an "aha" moment when it comes to comfort/fit! >>> >>> I enjoy following threads regarding saddle choice and positioning, >>> woolen underwear vs. padded shorts, handlebar options, PBH and frame size, >>> drop vs. reach, etc etc... and I've experimented with a bunch...which >>> leads me to be skeptical about putting my faith in a service that seems to >>> boil down to trial and error, plus common sense. So here are the questions: >>> >>> 1. Have you been professionally fitted, and did that result in a >>> noticeable improvement in comfort? Enough that you would advocate for >>> others? >>> >>> 2. I have three or four bikes, set up different ways (Homer with drop >>> bars as my "road bike", All Rounder with Albatross bars for "adventure", >>> etc)....if one is "fitted" to a certain bike, does the "fit" apply to >>> different set-ups? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, sd >>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9978e408-2038-4d6f-8e82-687e375a018en%40googlegroups.com.
