"The sum total of all of the above is sitting at 9025g. The numbers will change a little when I get the actual frame set in my hands, and figure out places for lighter fasteners."
And indeed a few grams have dropped: My seatpost and chainring were on my porch when I got home from visiting my mom and in-laws for Thanksgiving. My placeholder 195g weight entry for my Dura Ace seatpost became 190g confirmed. That'll drop maybe 15g when I cut it down for the build. My placeholder 70g for a 38T narrow-wide chainring became a confirmed 60g. Finally, my estimated 70g for my single friction thumb shifter became 60g confirmed, and includes 13g of steel hardware that I can swap in aluminum at about 4g. The entry in the spreadsheet is still at 60g, though until I pull the trigger on a McMaster-Carr bolts order. The spreadsheet is now at a very svelte 8999.2 grams. Somebody off-list told me that plastic sealed bearing Clem pedals are impressively light. I think I have a pair on a hard-to-reach bike in the garage. If they are in fact lighter than my road SPDs then I'll definitely use them for at least the weigh-in. Bill Lindsay El Cerrito, CA P.S. I will not be requesting Patrick Moore's hand-me-down pedals, so if one of you all want his free light clipless pedals, hit him up. On Sunday, December 1, 2024 at 5:39:05 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: > Rounding out the build plans there are sections 4 and 5. Components and > Accessories. Components in a way should come first on a Rivendell build > because the first thing we normally think about when defining the broad > strokes of a Riv build is the handlebar. In no particular order, > Components looks like: > > 4. Components > A. Handlebar > B. Stem > C. Brake Levers > D. Brake Calipers > E. Seatpost > F. Saddle > G. Grips/Tape > H. Cables/Housing > > My handlebar of choice is the Nitto Jitensha bar. These are kind of > classic, particularly in the Bay Area, because of Jitensha Studio. They > are basically a narrow Wavie, or more accurately the Wavie is a wider > Jitensha. The Jitensha bar is an amusing bar to buy on the second hand > market. As a road bar, Nitto always offered it in 26.0mm. Everybody knows > they are 26.0mm, but in my experience, every copy of the Jitensha bar I've > seen has passed through the hands of at least one person who either forgot, > or doesn't know how to measure their stem, or thinks that 25.4 is close > enough to 26.0. Because of that a used Jitensha bar is usually scratched > to hell on the sleeve. My copy is no different. Still, it's a great > handlebar (for me). The Holy Grail for a light weight build would be the > limited release ultralight Jitensha, which is the bulged Nitto treatment > rather than sleeved. My normal weight Jitensha weighs 243g. The 26.0 > quill stem is a 1990s Salsa. It has a normal steel bolt and an aluminum > wedge, but I had a little fun with my treasure box. I have a titanium > quill bolt that I bought in 1992, along with a hollowed out wedge. The > reason I had sat on the titanium bolt is that the head is a tiny bit > oversized and doesn't quite fit into the recess in the top of normal stems. > This time I was determined so I installed the removable trademark gold > aluminum top cap of the Salsa stem, chucked it up in my late-father's lathe > and bored it out the ~10-thousandths necessary to allow the bolt head to > fit properly. Swapping out the bolt and wedge dropped 22g and brings the > stem in at 252g. That tuning operation was free. > > There are essentially no choices for brake calipers. It's long reach > Tektros. They weigh 353g, but I've got a couple tuning moves to try. One > attempt failed. I guessed that the backbone style Koolstop pads might be > lighter than the holder-insert style. I bought some at Blue Heron and took > them home to weigh them and they turned out heavier than the stock holders. > I will probably upgrade the look to the Koolstop holders, because they > have a drillium look to them and I'm going to be using E-bike inserts from > Riv. > > For brake levers, big-spenders like Paul, and I have long been a fan of > the IRD that Riv featured on my RoadUno complete. I had the IRD levers in > the spreadsheet for a while, but I still have an Instead I decided to go > WAY cheaper and minimalist, and a good step lighter with Tektro FL-750. > These are the perfect flat bar road levers for builds with caliper brakes. > They are stripped down to the absolute essentials and they work great. I > found them on eBay from a seller who offered cheaper prices the more you > buy. I got four pairs for less than the price of one set of IRD, and they > weigh 117g for the pair, and I've got another 10g or so of tuning targeted. > > > Seatposts leave most people stuck on 2024 Rivs. All the nice boutique > posts come in 27.2. All the fancy vintage posts you have laying around are > 27.2, but Rivs take 26.8. Some upgrade from Kalloy to a Crystal Fellow or > other Nitto Post from Riv. The nicest metal seat posts ever made, in my > view of the world, were Shimano. In the early 90s, Dura Ace, XTR and > Ultegra models all has the same timeless minimalist silhouette, tremendous > strength and adjustability, and they were/are impressively light weight and > have the normal amount of setback so there are no fit hassles. There was a > time in the early 2000s where you could get NOS Shimano seat posts for $50, > but nowadays used ones are a lot more expensive. They were made in "all" > the sizes, but 27.2 definitely dominates the second hand market. I had a > Nitto S65 Crystal Fellow slotted in, but I kept my eyes peeled at located a > Dura Ace 7410 unit in 26.8. In my builds, the cut off for a "light" > seatpost is 200g. I expect this Dura Ace unit may come in at about 180. > The Nitto would have been about 220g, and about $20 more expensive. 200g > is also a good number for "light" saddles. The light road saddle I've > standardized on in my stable is the Fizik Arione. Steel rail basic models > are ~240g, and carbon railed minimalist models are ~150g. I'll put a 150g > unit on to start with the expectation that for longer rides I may defer > back to the heavier version. > > I have a bunch of extra Jagwire Elite links from my Roadeo build, and I > may try to pull that together with the right end bits and liner. Brake > housing is light, under 2g per inch, but it adds up, and Jagwire Elite is > approximately half the weight. The links I have are black, and I have my > eye on a new gold kit, I might try to do a fun combo of black and gold. > Cables are cables, but that may be the place I sneak in some Campagnolo > brake cables. Every bike should have one Campagnolo part. > > I plan electric blue thin foam grips, complemented by electric blue > Newbaums down the center. > > The Accessories section contains all the extras. There's judgement when > doing a weigh-in on a light build what things are OK to leave off. Here I > will only be using one Titanium King Cage, and a minimalist mini-pump. > When I weigh in, it will be a complete bicycle, but won't have any racks > or bags. > > The sum total of all of the above is sitting at 9025g. The numbers will > change a little when I get the actual frame set in my hands, and figure out > places for lighter fasteners. > > Bill Lindsay > El Cerrito, CA > On Friday, November 29, 2024 at 10:28:42 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: > >> I'll throw a couple more numbers around about wheels. Back in the 1980s >> when roadies had clinchers for "training wheels" and tubulars for "racing >> wheels, we picked up the number 1500g as the number for "light" wheels, >> without a freewheel/cassette. Without tires. Without skewers. Turns out >> that number is pretty applicable today as well. Carbon disc wheels aren't >> much lighter, but their rims are considered a LOT stronger than >> featherweight aluminum rims. My top-shelf HED all-metal wheelset weighed >> in at 1532g, so it's right there in the neighborhood of light wheels. It's >> all-black and has low spoke count, so it will be the most eye-catching >> non-Rivendell look on the build. That was the ironic vibe I was shooting >> for based on my DT240 conversation with Will. The Riv employees will look >> at it and say "Ha! that's awesome". >> >> In my stable, I have another wheelset with the same HED Belgium+ rims, >> built on Dura Ace hubs and 32 silver spokes. That wheel set can swap right >> in and will have a lot more typical Rivendell look. >> >> OK, moving on to Section 3, the drivetrain. My drivetrain section is >> comprised of: >> >> 3. Drivetrain >> A. Crankset >> i. Crank Arms >> ii. Chainring(s) >> iii. Bolts (crank and chainring) >> B. Pedals >> C. Chain >> D. Bottom Bracket >> E. Rear Derailer >> F. Front Derailer >> G. Shifters >> H. Cables and housing >> >> Whether to include the cassette in the drivetrain or in the wheelset is a >> clerical consideration. There can also be blurring of the categories if >> you insist on using integrated brake levers / shifters. I "never" do that, >> so it's not a problem. >> >> Architecturally, the first lever I pull for a light weight build was/is >> the first trick I listed up in the frame set section: "Air is weightless". >> So I decided to do a 1x 8 drivetrain featuring a crankset that can be set >> up as a multi-chainring build later. The lightest front detailer is no >> front detailer. The lightest left shifter is no left shifter. The >> lightest small chainring is no small chainring. Cassettes with fewer cogs >> tend to be lighter, etc. >> >> I had planned on running what is, in my opinion, the nicest crankset out >> there: Rene Herse. It's great, it is reliable, simple, minimalist. It can >> be set up as a single/double/triple and it is gorgeous and very light. It >> is also $450. I had it in there as a place holder, but later decided to do >> some swapping in the stable. My RoadUno build is not light with front and >> rear racks, a basket and three bags always attached. Who cares about >> another 150g? I swapped IN a Silver1 Crankset to my RoadUno and freed up a >> Silver3. The bare Rene Herse arms have a claimed weight of 418g. My >> Silver3 bare arms came in at 460g. The universe paid me $450 to accept 42g >> of extra weight, and it will be cool to have a <9kg Rivendell CHG featuring >> Silver3 cranks. The single ring will be a 38T Wolf Tooth 110mm BCD ring >> that I used my REI discount and rewards to pay for. My kids like getting >> me bike bling for Christmas so I gave my son the URL for some nice Wolf >> Tooth aluminum chainring bolts and RAZR grips. >> >> For the Bottom Bracket, I picked up a titanium White Industries unit, >> used, on the list for a good price, from a local, bundled with a Choco >> handlebar, which is a great bar to have on-hand. We'll see if the Choco >> bar gets used when we get to section 4 of the build. The Ti BB (140g) uses >> the same bearings and cups as the Steel unit that Riv sells. For Pedals I >> just grabbed the lightest pedals I already have in my stable: Ultegra-level >> Road SPDs (290g) >> >> The rear derailleur is a short cage (GS) Rapid-Rise XTR M950 (210g) that >> I removed from my Black Mountain Monster Cross, downgrading that bike to a >> mere Deore XT which is 30g heavier. The single shifter will be an IRD >> thumbie, built around a Silver that has been shortened and rubber tipped >> (70g). That pair of shifters came out of my shifter box. Cables/housing >> and chain will weigh what they weigh. I'll probably employ the >> contemporary iBob trick to run one narrower generation chain (9sp) on my >> 8sp cassette. The 8 gears will run between 33 and 87 gear inches. >> >> This minimalist drive train is extremely low-cost because of my >> repurposing of parts I already have, and has built-in flexibility and >> expandability. It is incidentally light because of its minimalist >> approach. There are still a few "tuning" opportunities to shave a couple >> grams here and there. Because of the tiny outlay of money thus far, I feel >> like I can afford to do a few things when it comes to actually executing >> the build. Furthermore, there is another easy 42 gram reduction available >> if and when I decide to grab another Rene Herse crankset. >> >> That's section 3. All we have left is Components and Accessories. >> >> Bill Lindsay >> El Cerrito, CA >> >> On Thursday, November 28, 2024 at 10:49:20 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: >> >>> Hi Joyce >>> >>> There's an immense backstory at every single piece on this build, and I >>> was going to meter it out one section at a time for that reason. One of >>> the fun backstories is that my old college roommate has asked me to set >>> aside 2+ weeks in the Summer of 2027 to do a Loire Valley cycle-tour. He's >>> not a bike person, but he does ride and enjoys riding. I resurrected a >>> 1990s Trek Hybrid for him and that's his bike right now. This Gallop build >>> will be somewhat similar to the bike he rides and likes. I'll do the tour >>> on my Romulus, and he'll ride the Gallop. Between now and then, it'll be >>> my flat bar "go fast". >>> >>> Moving to section 2: Wheel set, the whole idea hinged on Will Keating at >>> Rivendell. When I was there visiting and test riding the Gallop, I visited >>> Wills work station. He had a DT Swiss 240 hub on his desk. I picked it up >>> and fiddled with the free hub, and Will joked "Wouldn't it be great if >>> somebody used that hub on a Gallop?" That committed me to going >>> double-barreled at my build. Earlier this year I pulled together a >>> no-holds-barred build on a semi-custom Roadeo. The frame took nearly two >>> years to come in, and that gave me a lot of time to "upgrade" my build >>> spreadsheet. One of the big-ticket upgrades was a HED Belgium+ wheel set >>> with their super fancy RA Black sidewalls. The anodized and textured >>> pattern is purported to give ultimate braking performance and much longer >>> rim-life due to abrasion from road grit. They were super expensive and >>> pretty light weight, considering widish rims that I consider "bomber". >>> When I tried them out on my Roadeo, though, they did NOT play well with my >>> Rene Herse cantilever brakes. I ended up using a different HED Ardennes >>> wheel set with similar HED Belgium + rims, but normal sidewalls. That >>> wheel set came off my Legolas. I bought some sweet racing tubulars on eBay >>> for the Legolas, making it a true Cross Racer, but I was left with an extra >>> set of extremely fancy wheels. I was running them for a while on my modest >>> road bike, a Black Mountain Road. >>> >>> In my Spreadsheet, the Wheel set category normally goes like: >>> >>> 2. Wheels >>> A. Front hub >>> B. Rear hub >>> C. Skewers >>> D. Front Rim >>> E. Rear Rim >>> F. Spokes/nipples >>> G. Cassette >>> H. Front Tire >>> I. Rear Tire >>> J. Tubes >>> K. Rim strips >>> >>> When you deploy a house built wheel set product, that tends to knock out >>> A,B,D,E,and F. Sometimes K and C. My RA Black front wheel weighs 661g, >>> and the rear weighs 871g. I added a set of Control Tech 5mm Titanium >>> skewers that I've had for ~25 years. I installed TPU tubes and a set of >>> used Rene Herse Barlow Pass Extralight tires. My cassette choice is an 8 >>> speed vintage XTR 12-32 unit which weighs a respectable 240g. That pulls >>> in the entire category at 2611g confirmed. That is a wheel set that I >>> would be perfectly comfortable using with light touring loads. I would not >>> have bought a $1400 wheel set for this build, but I had already spent the >>> ~$1000 getting them on sale on a splurge. They deserve to be used. I have >>> several bikes that can swap wheels, so even this is a reversible >>> application. >>> >>> The teaser for the Section 3 Drivetrain is that the build will be a 1x8. >>> >>> >>> Bill Lindsay >>> El Cerrito >>> On Thursday, November 28, 2024 at 10:13:10 AM UTC-8 JAS wrote: >>> >>>> Bill, >>>> This series of build descriptions is of great interest to me and so >>>> timely since my Charlie Gallup has been shipped. I appreciate your >>>> strategy >>>> explanation and it's helping me think about my own new bike. I'll have my >>>> LBS build it up; I'm consulting with them about parts on Monday. The goal >>>> is keep it light though it won't be 19kg. I'm looking forward to your >>>> Sections on wheels and drivetrains....write soon! >>>> >>>> I'm struggling to decide between the new Riv Silver hubs and White >>>> Industries. The two Silver hubs weigh 122 grams heavier than WI and they >>>> cost considerably less (though I love the highly polished look of the WI >>>> hubs which I have on my Platy). One-quarter pound seems insignificant but >>>> as you say, it adds up over the total build, I've only seen a couple of >>>> comments about the Silver hubs; they were positive though lacking detail. >>>> Have you used them? Any thoughts that might help me decide? >>>> >>>> Will you tell us what you're choosing for your Charlie's wheelset or >>>> will we need to wait for the final build reveal? >>>> >>>> Happy Thanksgiving to all! >>>> Joyce >>>> >>>> On Thursday, November 28, 2024 at 8:48:47 AM UTC-8 Bill Lindsay wrote: >>>> >>>>> There's another thread on how I'm going to take a run at a <9kg Gallop >>>>> build. I've started this thread to lay out exactly how I plan out all >>>>> the >>>>> builds in my workshop. I'll apologize in advance for the long narrative, >>>>> but hopefully the few of you who poke around on Thanksgiving Day are >>>>> looking for something to read... >>>>> >>>>> My freshman year of high school, in the Fall of 1983 (Troy High >>>>> School, Fullerton, CA) I took a typing class as an elective. It made >>>>> perfect sense to me as preparation for taking a computer elective the >>>>> following semester, ha ha. We had a project in typing class to type up a >>>>> formatted outline, following all the rules of categorization with the >>>>> indents and headings just so. Each student had to come up with their own >>>>> content for the project and type it up. In the Fall of 1983 I was a >>>>> habitual cover to cover reader of Bicycling and Winning! magazines. I >>>>> was >>>>> obsessed with a Bruce Gordon Chinook in one of those magazines, and I >>>>> used >>>>> the build list for that bike as the content for my typing project. From >>>>> that moment forward, every build fits into the same framework. Every >>>>> build >>>>> is comprised of five categories: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Frame set >>>>> 2. Wheels >>>>> 3. Drivetrain >>>>> 4. Components >>>>> 5. Accessories >>>>> >>>>> I throw every build into a spreadsheet in those five groups. It >>>>> serves to organize my thoughts for every build, and as a checklist before >>>>> a >>>>> build begins, and sometimes helps me pull the build together mentally to >>>>> anticipate the places where a nuanced build might have places where I >>>>> could >>>>> paint myself into a corner. Sometimes, but not always, I'll use columns >>>>> for each line to list the weight and/or the price of the stuff I'm >>>>> pulling >>>>> together. By filling out that spreadsheet exhaustively with best guesses >>>>> I >>>>> can get into the ballpark on total price or total weight as a preview. >>>>> As >>>>> guesses become certainties, the numbers come into focus. As I've gotten >>>>> older, most of my builds have targets that have nothing to do with price >>>>> or >>>>> with weight: they are more about how exactly I want to experience cycling >>>>> on that particular machine. The term I use to capture that relationship >>>>> between the build and its target is the "build concept". >>>>> >>>>> So, let's start running through the build for my Gallop: Section 1 is >>>>> the Frame Set, which has three main parts >>>>> >>>>> 1. Frame set >>>>> A. Frame >>>>> B. Fork >>>>> C. Headset >>>>> >>>>> When I get my frame set, I'll remove the fork and weigh the fork with >>>>> the fork crown. I'll pop out the headset cups and weigh the headset >>>>> minus >>>>> the fork crown. I'll remove the pre-installed bottom bracket and weigh >>>>> the >>>>> bare frame. Then I will remove every bolt that is screwed into the frame >>>>> and weigh that collection of bolts separately and re-weigh the completely >>>>> stripped down frame. >>>>> >>>>> The Riv page for the FSA Headset claims it weighs 93.8 grams. That's >>>>> very light. 100g is the typical placeholder for a headset when I'm >>>>> planning >>>>> something out. Over 100g and I could substitute something lighter. >>>>> Under >>>>> 100g is pretty good. If it's really ~94g I'm keeping it. >>>>> >>>>> The bolts gives the opportunity to do some gram-chasing. Big picture, >>>>> bolts are always steel, there are ways to make those steel bolts lighter. >>>>> They are: >>>>> >>>>> 1. Air is weightless. Can you live without that bolt? If so, >>>>> consider leaving it out. That's free and totally weightless >>>>> 2. Plastic is almost as light as air, and is very cheap. Plastic >>>>> metric bolts in all sizes are made. They weigh almost nothing and cost >>>>> very little. If you don't need to bolt anything to that threaded hole, >>>>> but >>>>> want to plug the hole, consider plastic and screw it in with just your >>>>> fingers. >>>>> 3. Aluminum is 1/3 the weight of steel. Virtually every high end >>>>> mountain bike has aluminum water bottle bolts. They break sometimes, but >>>>> 19 out of 20 times they break, it was because the person holding the >>>>> wrench >>>>> over tightened them. For low-stress bolt on applications, aluminum is >>>>> great. They are not free, but if you buy them in bulk, the per-bolt cost >>>>> is not that much. If you bought them a while ago and they are just there >>>>> on the shelf, it feels like they are free. >>>>> 4. Titanium is half the weight of steel and nearly as strong. Pretty >>>>> much anything steel on a bike could be done in Titanium. It's a bit >>>>> lighter and is really expensive. >>>>> 5. Shorter steel bolts are lighter than longer steel bolts. Sometimes >>>>> water bottle bolts are 16mm long when 10mm bolts still have 100% >>>>> engagement. Swap 'em out if you have them laying about. >>>>> >>>>> A gram or two doesn't make any difference but if you look for a gram >>>>> or two everywhere, they can add up. You eat the elephant one bite at a >>>>> time. >>>>> >>>>> The last consideration in this first chapter will be steer tube >>>>> length. If the final build has me slamming my stem, then that will >>>>> signal >>>>> that I don't need that much steer tube. Typically Rivs come with ~30mm >>>>> of >>>>> headset spacers. If I can pull the spacers and cut the steer tube down >>>>> 30mm, that's more free grams. 1" steer tubes weight almost exactly >>>>> 1g/mm. >>>>> If I want to keep the extra stack of the long steerer and spacers, then >>>>> I'll keep it. >>>>> >>>>> That's section 1 of my upcoming build. Section 2 is wheels, and >>>>> that's the only section that is 100% complete right now. I'll get into >>>>> that later... >>>>> >>>>> Bill Lindsay >>>>> El Cerrito, CA >>>>> >>>>> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/1a060465-28c7-4878-9980-3110bae39235n%40googlegroups.com.
