Precisely.
Sent from my iPhone On Sep 10, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Joe Bernard <joerem...@gmail.com> wrote:
Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the world, I ride them and it's fun. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 5:51:36 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , and this is a whole case of them !
First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, largely depends on the design of the frame. I've had two bike set up as identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars.
The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much.
The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's always the same guitar.
This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie !
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:
So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?
Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular. Sent from my iPhone Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that.
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without needing the longest possible stem.
*I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy.
Joe Bernard On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like you find on all drop bar bikes?
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?
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