I've wondered the same thing. Printed metal products have been shown at bespoked shows in titanium and steel. I wonder about the cost?
Newer technology has already entered the process in ways that save time / lower costs. As Sachs mentions in that discussion at velocipedesalon <https://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum/f2/fnl-531-a-52498.html> - having no "Solidworks files" would be a daunting setback. 3D modeling and design likely has replaced making a handcut lug for the original design along the way. 3D printing from that digital design is likely how the model is made that becomes the (lost) wax pattern that goes into making the multiple ceramic mold step. The ease of having a digital file that is where a small modification can be made is probably invaluable for the speed and keeping costs low (picture a 72° to 73° seat lug design change with just a quick tweek to a digital drawing). It's a gritty looking process, the casting portion of making lugs. I'm sure there are reasons it still looks similar to the ways of the Bronze Age. Factors that effect the end product are likely still demanding of similar methods. It sounds like Matt Jacobs who posted above about his experiences could tell the story of methods new and old. When I've wondered about modern 3D metal printing a thought about strength and durability always enters my mind. The parts may be equal but there must be a hardening process which is at least one more step to think about. It's the straightest line of process steps to an (close-to) equal part that would win. I've also pictured the 3D printing of the wax pattern piece as well? This could short-cut out one molding step. These are all questions for a manufacturing insider - which I am not. Mark On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 1:56:23 PM UTC-4, lconley wrote: > > Maybe this is sacrilege, but can lugs be 3D printed at this point? > > > > Laing > > > > > > > > > > *From:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> < > rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> *On Behalf Of *M Talley > *Sent:* Thursday, July 11, 2019 1:17 PM > *To:* RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> > *Subject:* [RBW] Re: "Sadly, Long Shen is closing" Another loss to lugged > steel frame production > > > > Yes, a nice inside story of a possible path forward for precision lugs and > thank you for that inside view from Taiwan. > > > > Sachs really sounds like he had covered his remaining production schedule. > He also mentioned having his "tools" returned - so the masters? for his > personal designs (26 different castings). I would imagine Rivendell's tools > are either going back to their hands or to the replacement casting company? > > > > Fillet brazed is a path that makes sense when the recent designs are so > varied / non-standard. There's an inside story of fillet production told by > the young adventure bike brand's owner Cjell Mone. He is an experienced > builder and is impressed by the mastery of the Taiwan brazers whom he joins > in producing a run of his frames. > > https://bikepacking.com/plog/made-in-taiwan/ > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__bikepacking.com_plog_made-2Din-2Dtaiwan_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=fbpz-LhLhQnqxV9ePfEuoQ&m=C9eqydJHLtVX3nCeiPQgd41blyrrSU9hr1p7174qaug&s=6tbK0IKgidryqa2PlpKitkAoN0dz-ioH0s7KY5fCpUM&e=> > > > > I agree, there are likely many other brands that need a supplier for > custom lugs. Just the number of suppliers and buyers / builders of > "generic" Long Shen lugs is a supply quantity that would be seeking a > replacement. So someone who can step in has to be eyeing that business. > > > > This discussion in my mind is about the custom lugs that the eye > identifies as Rivendell - not the Henry James look. I would miss stock > Rivendells that aren't built to the old completely lugged standard. This is > a game of cost - quantity ordered, capacity to produce (possibly small > numbers) in the general proximity (Taiwan) of the frame builder. The > challenge might be if a qualified producer is interested when there's > demand that pays top dollar for pricier technology-driven castings. My > fingers are crossed for continuity of this standard full-lugged frame type. > Perhaps the cost needs to increase to near custom MUSA for MIT. > > > > I also apologize as well for my musing at length. > > Mark > > > On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 11:30:29 AM UTC-4, Matt Jacobs wrote: > > I have some on-site perspective to lend to this discussion - I apologize > in advance if I am somewhat long-winded. Hopefully you find it interesting > and somewhat engaging. > > > > About three weeks ago, I got back from a two-month work study in Taiwan > through my university. While I was there, I worked for a company in the > Dadu district of Taichung, that does precision die casting, working > primarily in Aluminum, Magnesium, and Zinc. They're called Magic Precision > (here's > their website if you're curious > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__mgprecision.com_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=fbpz-LhLhQnqxV9ePfEuoQ&m=C9eqydJHLtVX3nCeiPQgd41blyrrSU9hr1p7174qaug&s=Mfd6MBYZ632KciyQ-Agiy125Ed977vqBAv-JK5BFO4Q&e=>). > > Magic Precision hasn't made many bicycle parts to my knowledge - they do > make some pretty cool parts though, such as laboratory equipment for > National Instruments, as well as the motor mounts, cooling fins, and other > assorted castings for a company in California called Zero, which is a > manufacturer of performance electric cycles...motorcycles, that is (almost > had ya there). They also make the housing for many popular e-cigarette > brands, too, which most of the workers find to be gross but a few are > really on board with. Along with many, many other interesting parts. > > > > Every other week or so, my friend Nate and I would go with a few other > employees from Magic Precision with our manager, who would take us to visit > other companies in our area that we do business with. On one of these > visits, we went by a company that was similar to ours, a job shop in > essence...exclusively for lost-wax investment cast pieces, called Shin > Yih Precision Casting Co Ltd. > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.shinyih.com.tw_en_k2-2Dextra-2Dfields_profile.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=fbpz-LhLhQnqxV9ePfEuoQ&m=C9eqydJHLtVX3nCeiPQgd41blyrrSU9hr1p7174qaug&s=keaFZ2FL8rNKR7hRV2XybPeKrfUzZn36pJyfjWyEtAQ&e=> > > I had done a little investment casting when I took metals class two > semesters ago, but my dinky molds were no comparison to the absolute wonder > that took place before us. I'll let the pictures do most of the talking, > but if you are curious about what's happening here, this page from > Rivendell's site > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.rivbike.com_pages_long-2Dshen-2Dtrip&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=fbpz-LhLhQnqxV9ePfEuoQ&m=C9eqydJHLtVX3nCeiPQgd41blyrrSU9hr1p7174qaug&s=kpo883dh4kLrGNURTcwABhkB5LPLmYSJOCGTB058XpE&e=>is > > a good primer on how companies like Long Shen do their business. In fact, > the video on Riv's article could have been taken at Shin Yih, even though > the two companies are a district apart (about a 30 minute drive from Dajia > district to Qingshui district). > > > > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__photos.app.goo.gl_dooTULEubicHSBsL8&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=fbpz-LhLhQnqxV9ePfEuoQ&m=C9eqydJHLtVX3nCeiPQgd41blyrrSU9hr1p7174qaug&s=_uP9fm0dXz8kB1num7fXeWe1DS5DMoKIDCu4wqqgEQ8&e=> > > Here are some photos from my tour at Shin Yih. > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__photos.app.goo.gl_dooTULEubicHSBsL8&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=fbpz-LhLhQnqxV9ePfEuoQ&m=C9eqydJHLtVX3nCeiPQgd41blyrrSU9hr1p7174qaug&s=_uP9fm0dXz8kB1num7fXeWe1DS5DMoKIDCu4wqqgEQ8&e=> > If > you scroll down you can see a few bicycle parts - most notably a nice > sloping fork crown, a chain tool, and a facing tool for canti brake bosses. > > > > Why do I share this? In my experience, each business in Taiwan is pretty > specialized to a niche industry - if there is sufficient demand, other > companies like Shin Yih will step up to fill in, in case Long Shen really > does bite the dust. The rumblings that they're on their way out would be > disappointing to many, including me, but there are many paths forward - > this is just one. This is only my supposition, of course, but Long Shen > likely wouldn't be doing too well if their only customers were Grant > Petersen, Kirk Pacenti, and Richard Sachs, and they have probably have > found other ways to support their business from time to time. If someone at > Rivendell is looking for a future supplier of lost wax investment castings > down the road, there's a business card for a guy named Tony who took us > around for a tour in the photo album, too. > > > > -- Matt Jacobs in Redondo Beach, CA (for now) > > > P.S. I will say that I love my MIT Atlantis, which has both lugs and > fillet brazing throughout - each has its own unique beauty. I'm working in > El Segundo, CA for the rest of the summer. I was worried, but LA is > actually pretty good for cycling in my experience thus far. If there are > some good Riv rides or BOB-ish groups in the South Bay area, please send me > an off-list reply, I would love to hear all about it. > > > > > > On Wednesday, July 10, 2019 at 5:05:08 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote: > > It's actually the original vision, which Grant backed out of shortly after > the company got going. A very early interview mentioned lugged models, plus > a possible lower-priced TIG bike. > > Lugs are great and my custom will have them, but it's going to have some > filleted joints like that recent one, too. 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