On Thu, May 5, 2022 at 4:24 PM Daniel P. Berrangé <berra...@redhat.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, May 05, 2022 at 07:36:51PM +1000, Alistair Francis wrote:
> > On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 5:57 PM Atish Patra <ati...@atishpatra.org> wrote:
> > >
> > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 5:26 PM Atish Patra <ati...@atishpatra.org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Tue, Apr 19, 2022 at 9:51 AM Daniel P. Berrangé
> > > > <berra...@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 07:10:06PM -0700, Atish Patra wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The RISC-V virt machine has helped RISC-V software eco system to
> > > > > > evolve at a
> > > > > > rapid pace even in absense of the real hardware. It is definitely
> > > > > > commendable.
> > > > > > However, the number of devices & commandline options keeps growing
> > > > > > as a result
> > > > > > of that as well. That adds flexibility but will also become bit
> > > > > > difficult
> > > > > > to manage in the future as more extension support will be added. As
> > > > > > it is the
> > > > > > most commonly used qemu machine, it needs to support all kinds of
> > > > > > device and
> > > > > > interrupts as well. Moreover, virt machine has limitations on the
> > > > > > maximum
> > > > > > number of harts it can support because of all the MMIO devices it
> > > > > > has to support.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The RISC-V IMSIC specification allows to develop machines
> > > > > > completely relying
> > > > > > on MSI and don't care about the wired interrupts at all. It just
> > > > > > requires
> > > > > > all the devices to be present behind a PCI bus or present
> > > > > > themselves as platform
> > > > > > MSI device. The former is a more common scenario in x86 world where
> > > > > > most
> > > > > > of the devices are behind PCI bus. As there is very limited MMIO
> > > > > > device
> > > > > > support, it can also scale to very large number of harts.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's why, this patch series introduces a minimalistic yet very
> > > > > > extensible
> > > > > > forward looking machine called as "RISC-V Mini Computer" or
> > > > > > "minic". The
> > > > > > idea is to build PC or server like systems with this machine. The
> > > > > > machine can
> > > > > > work with or without virtio framework. The current implementation
> > > > > > only
> > > > > > supports RV64. I am not sure if building a RV32 machine would be of
> > > > > > interest
> > > > > > for such machines. The only mmio device it requires is clint to
> > > > > > emulate
> > > > > > the mtimecmp.
> > > > >
> > >
> > > Any other thoughts ?
> >
> > I don't *love* this idea. I think the virt machine is useful, but I'm
> > not convinced we need a second one.
> >
> > This feels a little bit more like a "none" machine, as it contains
> > just the bare minimum to work.
> >
> > >
> > > > > I would ask what you see as the long term future usage for 'virt' vs
> > > > > 'minic' machine types ? Would you expect all existing users of 'virt'
> > > > > to ultimately switch to 'minic', or are there distinct non-overlapping
> > > > > use cases for 'virt' vs 'minic' such that both end up widely used ?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nope. I don't expect existing 'virt' users to switch to 'minic' as
> > > > they aim to cater to different users.
> > > >
> > > > Here are the major differences
> > > > 1. virt machine supports MMIO devices & wired interrupts. Minic doesn't
> >
> > This seems like the main difference
> >
> > > > 2. virt machine doesn't support the MSI only option yet (can be added
> > > > though[1]). Minic does.
> >
> > This could be fixed
> >
> > > > 3. Number of cpu supported by virt machine are limited because of the
> > > > MMIO devices. Minic can scale to very
> > > > large numbers of cpu.
> >
> > Similar to 1
> >
> > > > 4. 'Minic' only supports PCI based MSI capable devices. Thus, MSI is a
> > > > mandatory requirement for 'minic' while
> > > > it is optional for 'virt'.
> >
> > I'm not fully convinced we need this, but it also doesn't seem to cost
> > us a lot in terms of maintenance. It would be beneficial if we could
> > share a bit more of the code. Can we share the socket creation code as
> > well?
> >
> > I don't like the name minic though. What about something like
> > `virt-hpc`, `virt-pcie-minimal` or something like that? That way we
> > indicate it's still a virt board
>
> We're not versioning the 'virt' machine type right so. IOW, we've not
> made any promises about its long term featureset.
>
> If the virt machine type isn't the perfect match right now, should
> we change it, in a potentially incompatible way, to give us the right
> solution long term, rather than introducing a brand new machine type
> with significant overlap.
Versioning of "virt" machine has been a long pending item for enterprise
class Guest/VM migration.
Since "virt" machine is QEMU RISC-V specific, we can do the following:
1) Detailed documentation of "virt" machine layout along with versioning
in the QEMU documentation
2) Re-structure "virt" machine implementation to support future changes
"virt" machine.
Regards,
Anup
>
>
> With regards,
> Daniel
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