On Fri, Mar 23, 2018 at 12:45:30PM +0300, Roman Kagan wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 03:38:13PM -0300, Eduardo Habkost wrote:
> > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 04:58:03PM +0300, Roman Kagan wrote:
> > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 10:22:18AM -0300, Eduardo Habkost wrote:
> > > > On Thu, Mar 22, 2018 at 04:00:14PM +0300, Roman Kagan wrote:
> > > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 05:19:24PM -0300, Eduardo Habkost wrote:
> > > > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 07:57:29PM +0300, Roman Kagan wrote:
> > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 02:18:54PM +0100, Vitaly Kuznetsov wrote:
> > > > > > > > Roman Kagan <rka...@virtuozzo.com> writes:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 06:35:00PM +0100, Vitaly Kuznetsov
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >> Requiring tsc_is_stable_and_known() is too restrictive: even
> > > > > > > > >> without INVTCS
> > > > > > > > >> nested Hyper-V-on-KVM enables TSC pages for its guests e.g.
> > > > > > > > >> when
> > > > > > > > >> Reenlightenment MSRs are present. Presence of frequency MSRs
> > > > > > > > >> doesn't mean
> > > > > > > > >> these frequencies are stable, it just means they're
> > > > > > > > >> available for reading.
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> Signed-off-by: Vitaly Kuznetsov <vkuzn...@redhat.com>
> > > > > > > > >> ---
> > > > > > > > >> target/i386/kvm.c | 2 +-
> > > > > > > > >> 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 1 deletion(-)
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> diff --git a/target/i386/kvm.c b/target/i386/kvm.c
> > > > > > > > >> index 7d9f9ca0b1..74fc3d3b2c 100644
> > > > > > > > >> --- a/target/i386/kvm.c
> > > > > > > > >> +++ b/target/i386/kvm.c
> > > > > > > > >> @@ -651,7 +651,7 @@ static int
> > > > > > > > >> hyperv_handle_properties(CPUState *cs)
> > > > > > > > >> env->features[FEAT_HYPERV_EAX] |=
> > > > > > > > >> HV_TIME_REF_COUNT_AVAILABLE;
> > > > > > > > >> env->features[FEAT_HYPERV_EAX] |=
> > > > > > > > >> HV_REFERENCE_TSC_AVAILABLE;
> > > > > > > > >>
> > > > > > > > >> - if (has_msr_hv_frequencies &&
> > > > > > > > >> tsc_is_stable_and_known(env)) {
> > > > > > > > >> + if (has_msr_hv_frequencies && env->tsc_khz) {
> > > > > > > > >> env->features[FEAT_HYPERV_EAX] |=
> > > > > > > > >> HV_ACCESS_FREQUENCY_MSRS;
> > > > > > > > >> env->features[FEAT_HYPERV_EDX] |=
> > > > > > > > >> HV_FREQUENCY_MSRS_AVAILABLE;
> > > > > > > > >> }
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I suggest that we add a corresponding cpu property here, too.
> > > > > > > > > The guest
> > > > > > > > > may legitimately rely on these msrs when it sees the support
> > > > > > > > > in CPUID,
> > > > > > > > > and migrating from a kernel with the feature supported
> > > > > > > > > (4.14+) to an
> > > > > > > > > older one will make it crash.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > This can be arranged, but what happens to people who use these
> > > > > > > > features
> > > > > > > > today? Assuming they also passed 'invtsc' they have stable TSC
> > > > > > > > page
> > > > > > > > clocksource already (when Hyper-V role is enabled) but when we
> > > > > > > > start
> > > > > > > > requesting a new 'hv_frequency' cpu property they'll suddenly
> > > > > > > > lose what
> > > > > > > > they have...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see two cases here:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 1) people start a new VM, and discover that their old
> > > > > > > configuration is
> > > > > > > not enough for this feature to work.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > They need to reconfigure and restart the VM. This costs them
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > time investigating and restarting, but not data.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we keep machine-type compatibility, people will need to do
> > > > > > that only if they change the machine-type (or use the "pc" or
> > > > > > "q35" aliases). If they copy the old configuration, it will keep
> > > > > > working.
> > > > >
> > > > > The problem is that the feature is not fixed by the machine-type, due
> > > > > to
> > > > > the forgotten property: it only depends on the KVM version. So, once
> > > > > (if) we add the property and make the feature deterministic, we'll
> > > > > lose
> > > > > compatibility one way or another.
> > > > >
> > > > > Or are you suggesting that for pre-2.12 machine types we leave the
> > > > > property at "decided by your KVM" state?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, that's what I mean. This looks like the only way to avoid
> > > > losing features by just cold-rebooting an existing VM.
> > > >
> > > > The scenario I'm thinking is this:
> > > >
> > > > 1) pc-2.11 VM started on host running QEMU 2.11
> > > > 2) VM migrated to a host containing this patch
> > > > 3) 1 year later, the VM is shut down and booted again.
> > > > 4) Things stop working inside the VM because hv-frequency is
> > > > unexpectedly gone.
> > > >
> > > > Machine-type compatibility code would avoid (4).
> > >
> > > Right, but (4) typically means that you fail to start your workload from
> > > a clean state, so you just go and fix it; no data is lost.
> > >
> > > Compare this to a migration to an older KVM which results in your guest
> > > crashing, where you risk data loss and still have to meddle with
> > > configs.
> >
> > True. To make it worse, we are already unable to avoid this crash
> > on existing VMs without a reboot. The only case where we can fix
> > this is if live-migration to older KVM happens after the guest
> > was rebooted when running on a newer QEMU version. :(
>
> Hmm, I thought the scheme I outlined below covered (== blocked) live
> migration QEMU-2.11/KVM-4.14+ -> QEMU-2.12(machine-2.11)/KVM-4.13-,
> didn't it?
It should, but what about migration
QEMU-2.12(pc-2.11)/KVM-4.14 -> QEMU-2.11(pc-2.11)/KVM-4.13?
Or, more specifically:
QEMU-2.11(pc-2.11)/KVM-4.14 ->
QEMU-2.12(pc-2.11)/KVM-4.14 -> QEMU-2.11(machine-2.11)/KVM-4.13?
>
> > > > > > machine-type compatibility also makes the following case a bit
> > > > > > safer:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2) people migrate from a QEMU without ->hv_frequency, to a new
> > > > > > > one with
> > > > > > > ->hv_frequency=off (assuming on both ends KVM supports the
> > > > > > > frequency
> > > > > > > MSRs).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > With the current implementation in KVM, this will only result
> > > > > > > in the
> > > > > > > feature bits disappearing from the respective CPUID leaf, but
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > MSRs themselves will continue working as they used to. So the
> > > > > > > guest
> > > > > > > either won't notice or will check the CPUID and adjust.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > If we keep machine-type compatibility, the CPUID bit won't
> > > > > > disappear for the guest while the MSRs keep working.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Whichever solution we choose, we can still have guests crashing
> > > > > > if migrating a pc-2.11 machine from a 4.14+ host kernel to a host
> > > > > > with an older kernel. But I don't think there's a way out of
> > > > > > this, except requiring an explicit "hv-frequencies" CPU option on
> > > > > > newer machine-types.
> > > > >
> > > > > What's wrong with requiring it, as we do for all other hv_*
> > > > > properties?
> > > >
> > > > On new machine-types, nothing wrong.
> > > >
> > > > On existing machine-types, see above.
> > >
> > > I wonder if the following can cater to all relevant cases:
> > >
> > > - hv_frequencies property is added, defaulting to "off", so that new
> > > users of this feature would need to explicitly turn it on;
> > >
> > > - on pre-2.12 machine types, it's set to the value of hv_time property
> > > by the compat code, so that on VMs where this feature could
> > > potentially be present it would become required; as a result, these
> > > configurations will refuse to start on insufficiently capable KVM,
> > > preventing the migration attempts.
> >
> > This sounds like the safest option. The cost will be the
> > inconvenience of being unable to run pc-2.11 on hosts with older
> > KVM (Linux < v4.14, without commit
> > 72c139bacfa386145d7bbb68c47c8824716153b6),
>
> not completely unable: people will have to add "hv_frequencies=off" to
> their cpu spec
This is different from the patch you sent, which sets
hv-frequencies=off by default on pc-2.11 too.
(And now I see you described this approach in the last paragraph below. :)
>
> > and the need to explicitly enable hv-frequencies on pc-2.12 and newer.
>
> which is the standard situation for all new features.
Yes, no question on what we want to do on pc-2.12.
>
> > > Am I missing any scenarios that aren't covered?
> > >
> >
> > It looks like the guest can still crash if we migrate
> > "QEMU-2.12 -machine pc-2.11 -cpu ...,+hv-time" to a host running
> > QEMU 2.11 and Linux < 4.14.
>
> Indeed :(
Well, your patch fixes it by not enabling hv-frequencies by
default on any machine-type. Do you see any gotchas?
>
> > I wonder if there's a way to avoid that? If there's a way to avoid
> > that with extra migration subsections,
>
> I guess this should work.
>
> > is it worth the effort/complexity?
>
> This is a judgement call. For vendors this is a non-issue because most
> of them haven't even started shipping 2.11, so they just don't have VMs
> with this problem in the field.
>
> So, taking the effort/complexity vs safety tradeoff into account, we can
> consider an alternative approach: just add hv_frequencies (default=off)
> cpu property to 2.12 and 2.11-stable, and ignore the cases where it's
> run on QEMU versions without explicit control over this feature. Would
> it be too much against the current policy?
>
With this, we can just declare that QEMU v2.11.0 + Linux 4.14+
was broken, and advise people to upgrade QEMU.
I think is the most reasonable option we have. See my reply to
the patch you sent.
--
Eduardo
