Thanks a lot all for your suggestions, I am clear now.
On Mon, Jan 2, 2023 at 10:50 AM <avi.e.gr...@gmail.com> wrote: > Not to wax poetic about our pasts, Thomas, but I do did not start with > PASCAL and used quite a few languages before and plenty after. At the time > it had interesting contrasts to languages like BASIC, FORTRAN and LISP and > I > tended to use whatever was available on the machines I was using. My first > computer job (other than in grad school itself) was using OMSI PASCAL. I > even wrote my thesis as a PASCAL program containing comments that included > typesetting instructions in a language called RUNOFF while the PASCAL > program itself was a set of comments as far as RUNOFF was concerned. So it > compiled or was typeset and printed from the same source. > > But my next job after graduation was for Bell Labs and I had to forget all > the mainframe or DEC systems and adapt to UNIX, and of course C and later > C++ and the various other little languages that came with that such as AWK > and PERL ... > > There is no one right language but there often is a small set of right > languages given your circumstances, such as what your employer has everyone > using and especially in group projects. > > To be fair, languages like Python and R seem to keep having parts rewritten > in C or C++ to make some things run faster and can include libraries > written > ages ago in languages like FORTRAN that have been finely tuned. Under the > hood, these languages often hide parts so that developing a new python (or > R > or ...) module/package can start by writing it all in that language and > then > taking some functionality and rewriting it in the other language for > critical regions where a slower interpreted method may be speeded up. > > But for prototyping, or when speed is not a big deal, I really prefer > Python > to ... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Python-list <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail....@python.org> > On > Behalf Of Thomas Passin > Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2023 10:15 PM > To: python-list@python.org > Subject: Re: NoneType List > > On 1/1/2023 9:14 PM, avi.e.gr...@gmail.com wrote: > > Thomas, > > > > I used PASCAL before C and I felt like I was wearing a straitjacket at > > times in PASCAL when I was trying to write encryption/decryption > > functions and had to find ways to fiddle with bits. Similar things > > were easy in C, and are even easier in many more recent languages such > > as Python. > > PASCAL was not the first language I learned. I won't pretend I had to do > anything very complicated, or do much bit-twiddling. It was, though, the > first one (except probably for FORTH) I enjoyed programming with more than > I > disliked the boiler-plate formalities. > > > The distinction between teaching a first language, or one that is so > > cautious as to catch and prevent all mistakes it can, is not for > > people willing to be bolder or work faster or write routines that can > > be used more generally. > > > > What has not been mentioned is that languages like python go a step > > further and allow a function to return many arguments and even a > > varying number of arguments, as well as none at all. To do anything > > like that in PASCAL > > (or C, for that matter) > > > took some thought on how to make some structure you could fill out > > then return as a single value that the receiving code had to sort of > > decode and perhaps deal with parts that could hold a union of several > > things. Can a compiler or interpreter easily verify you did something > > reasonable, as compared to say python that allows something like: > > > > (res1, res2, _, res4, _, rest) = f(x) > > Yes, that's one of the good things about Python, how it makes working with > tuples so easy and natural. OTOH, harking back to PASCAL for a minute, it > had enumerations and sets long before Python got them. > > > The above tells the interpreter you expect perhaps 6 or more results > > and what to do with them. > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- From: Python-list > > <python-list-bounces+avi.e.gross=gmail....@python.org> On Behalf Of > > Thomas Passin Sent: Sunday, January 1, 2023 1:03 PM To: > > python-list@python.org Subject: Re: NoneType List > > > > On 1/1/2023 8:47 AM, Stefan Ram wrote: > >> Thomas Passin <li...@tompassin.net> writes: > >>> Guido had been working on the ABC language for some years before he > >>> developed Python. ABC was intended mainly as a teaching and > >>> prototyping language. > >> > >> In those days, there used to be a language called "Pascal". Pascal > >> had a dichotomy between "functions" and "procedures". A call to a > >> function was intended to have a value. A call to a procedure was > >> intended to have an effect. > > > > Wirth developed Pascal as a teaching language. IIRC, originally it was > > taught to students before there were any implementations. I did most > > of my programming with Turbo Pascal for many years. Just to clarify > > what you wrote above, in Pascal a "procedure" does not return anything > > while a "function" does. > > > > I really liked (Turbo) Pascal and I hated C back then. No wonder I > > like Python so much. It must be something about how my mind works. > > > >> For some beginners, the difference between a value and and effect can > >> be hard to grasp. So, Pascal's distinction helps to hammer that home. > >> > >> Experienced programmers know the difference and do no longer require > >> the effort of the language to teach it to them. > >> > >> The time when someone is a beginner and still struggles to understand > >> the difference between values and effects usually is significantly > >> shorter than the later time where he has understood it and is > >> programming productively, so it might be better when the language is > >> adapted to people who already have understood the difference. > >> > >> > > > > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > > > > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
