> On 16 Apr 2020, at 08:45, Mike Dewhirst <mi...@dewhirst.com.au> wrote:
>
> On 16/04/2020 2:46 pm, DL Neil via Python-list wrote:
>> On 16/04/20 3:34 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>
>>> declaimed the following:
>>>
>>>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>>>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>>>
>>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python-id...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>>>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>>>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>>>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>>>
>>>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>>>
>>> No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on how
>>> to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should realize
>>> that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be used
>>> in attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere
>>> for the application itself.
>>>
>>> I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:
>>> Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10) the M$
>>> "app store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to make
>>> changes to their distributions?
>>
>>
>> @Barry's observation is that many first-time Python-on-Windows users seem to
>> fail at the first click. (I have also voiced similar concerns 'here')
>
> I use Python on both Windows and Linux. Therefore I more or less disqualify
> myself from being able to comment. I have found ways to operate successfully
> and would only really be able to suggest what works for me. But I do feel
> moved to offer my thoughts.
>
> The real solution is to more closely define the target audience plus the
> Python precise skill attainment desired.
>
> Carefully describe/define the first-time Python user on Windows. Then prepare
> the installer to suit that definition.
At a first guess its the folks that email screen snap shots to us on a daily
basis and ask about why python prompts to repair, uninstall.
>
> The description might specify the level of Windows expertise (or lack of) in
> exquisite detail. You need age, gender, education level, etc. You need a real
> person in your mind's eye to prepare the product for. You need to be able to
> imagine the answer to any question you might ask such an imaginary person.
> Plus understanding colleagues if they hear you asking :)
>
> Maybe the objective is to write hello world or a simple game in a dos prompt.
> If gui skill attainment is felt to be important for the defined audience then
> hello world would probably be enough.
>
> If the defined neophyte user is sufficiently inexperienced then forget IDEs
> and focus only on a text editor with syntax highlighting.
>
> We all know how important virtual envs are and multiple Python installs but
> newbies don't need or even want to know that. Time enough to realise you need
> it when it solves a future roadblock for you. It is impossible to get started
> when confronted with too much information.
>
> The bottom line is that Windows is designed to hide things from the user. Our
> new user might be very experienced in MS Office but knows nothing about the
> operating system. That means the installer needs to provide a desktop
> shortcut which delivers a pre-defined user experience and from which the user
> can emerge with clear understanding.
>
> I would suggest one click (double-click actually) to open a command prompt
> with the interpreter running ready to accept input. Another which opened a
> getting-started document which assumes no prior knowledge but requires a
> ready Python interpreter. Finally another entitled "Next steps". From my
> perspective the installer should create a desktop folder called "Python
> shortcuts" to contain all such clickable nirvana.
Interesting that's what I go from Dennis's reply.
>
> Think about a bootstrap track on a disk. There is only enough there to get to
> the next step.
>
>>
>> As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use
>> MS-Windows because that's what they've been given, or must use, at their
>> work. I have read articles which suggest that MS-Windows has improved to the
>> point of making a good/better dev.platform. Whether *I* agree, or not, is of
>> no import in this conversation.
>
> But it is interesting. I use Windows because I have no choice. All my
> production machines are non-gui Ubuntu. I started my programming on non-gui
> PCs which made it simple with Windows. However, on reading some of these
> emails from struggling Windows users it is easy to agree Windows is not made
> for new devs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
>
> PS: I think the installer on Windows should install to a user-accessible
> location on the file system - not Program files. When I first installed
> Python on Windows the default location was C:\Python24 (I think). New users
> won't see it there but when they do need to look at it they will find it much
> more accessible.
I think that is a none issue as py.exe is the Windows CMD interface to python.
I stopped needing python.exe on my PATH in windows a long time ago, its just
too hard to work with the PATH.
I have 14 versions of python installed at the moment. py.exe can trivially get
to all of them.
I think it's a mistake to ask users to mess with the PATH on windows.
>
> PPS: Christoph Gohlke's work should be formally supported by PSF and become
> "Official".
What is this work?
Barry
>
>>
>>
>> If one downloads other Win-installer installed software, what happens? Is
>> Python's Win-download following the same, expected, pattern?
>> If not, why not?
>> Why does the installer not delete itself after (successful) installation? ie
>> why are users left a situation where (what is actually) re-installation is
>> the most obvious 'next thing to do'?
>>
>>
>> What about installing a menu-item (or whatever they call those Win-10
>> home-screen 'boxes'), and that it either:
>> - launches Idle as a dev.env, or
>> - opens a 'DOS box' and fires-up Python from the cmdLN
>>
>> Either would at-least allow neophytes to get-started. Neither would affect
>> established users, who dive straight into their IDE-of-choice.
>>
>> As for other distributions: what they do is their business. Literally! After
>> all, (in thought) one man's baldachin is another man's canopy...
>>
>>
>> Meantime, we cut-down on so many of the essentially repetitive 'noise'
>> questions on this list. Perhaps more importantly, it removes the temptation
>> to assume that the tenth such enquiry this-week, has come from the same
>> person as the other nine, and thus to respond bluntly, impolitely, or in an
>> other than encouraging fashion. (see also the Python Foundation's several
>> diversity, inclusion, and other principles)
>
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