On 1/5/14 8:22 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
On 1/5/14 8:14 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
http://lucumr.pocoo.org/2014/1/5/unicode-in-2-and-3/
Please don't shoot the messenger :)
With all of the talk about py 2 vs. py3 these days, this is the blog
post that I think deserves the most real attention. I haven't had to do
the kind of coding that Armin is talking about, but I've heard more than
one person talk about the difficulty of it in Python 3.
If anyone wants Python 3 uptake improved, the best thing would be to
either explain to Armin how he missed the easy way to do what he wants
(seems unlikely), or advocate to the core devs why they should change
things to improve this situation.
OK, let's see what we got from three core developers on this list:
- Antoine dismissed the post as "a rant".
- Terry took issue with three claims made, and ended with, "I suspect
there are other basic errors, but I mostly quit reading at this point."
- Serhiy made a sarcastic comment comparing Python 3's bytes/unicode
handling with Python 2's int/str handling, implying that since int/str
wasn't a problem, then bytes/unicode isn't either.
This is discouraging. Armin is a prolific and well-known contributor to
a number of very popular packages. He's devoted a great deal of time to
the Python ecosystem, including writing the PEP that got u"" literals
back in Python 3.3. If he's having trouble with Python 3, it's a
serious problem.
You can look through his problems and decide that he's "wrong," or that
he's "ranting," but that doesn't change the fact that Python 3 is
encountering friction. What happens when a significant fraction of your
customers are "wrong"?
Core developers: I thank you for the countless hours you have devoted to
building all of the versions of Python. I'm sure in many ways it's a
thankless task. But you have a problem. What's the point in being
right if you end up with a product that people don't use?
If Armin, with all of his skills and energy, is having problems using
your product, then there's a problem. Compounding that problem is the
attitude that dismisses him as wrong.
Kenneth Reitz's reaction to Armin's blog post was: "A fantastic article
about why Python 2 is a superior programming language for my personal
use case." https://twitter.com/kennethreitz/status/419889312935993344
So now we have two revered developers vocally having trouble with Python
3. You can dismiss their concerns as niche because it's only network
programming, but that would be a mistake. Given the centrality of
network programming in today's world, and the dominance these two
developers have in building libraries to solve networking problems, I
think someone should take their concerns seriously.
Maybe there are core developers who are trying hard to solve the
problems Kenneth and Armin are facing. It would be great if that work
was more visible. I don't see it, and apparently Armin doesn't either.
--
Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
