On 22/06/2013 03:32, Rick Johnson wrote:
On Friday, June 21, 2013 8:54:50 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
On 22/06/2013 00:51, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Friday, June 21, 2013 5:49:51 PM UTC-5, MRAB wrote:
> My argument has always been that mutables should not be
> passed into subroutines as default arguments because bad
> things can happen. [...] I also believe that a programmer
> should not be prevented from passing mutable default
> arguments [...]
So, having mutables as default arguments is a bad idea,
but a programmer should not be prevented from doing that,
and a warning message should be printed on such occasions.
Well i'll admit that does sound like a contradiction.
Basically i meant, programmers should be *discouraged* from
passing mutables as default arguments but not *prevented*.
Of course, utilizing a stateless subroutine like i suggest,
argument mutability would not matter.
Sometimes when you're passionate about something your
explanations become so verbose as to render your idea lost
in the noise. Obviously i made that mistake here :)
Yes, a more measured explanation tends to work better. :-)
In my last reply to Rotwang i explained the functionality i
seek to achieve in a set of three interactive examples.
Take a look at those and let me know what you think.
Hmm. Like they say, "The devil's in the details". As with the
mutability thing, I need to think about it some more. Sometimes it
seems straight-forward, until you try to do it! :-)
> Why should i help the developers of this language. What have
> they done for me?
They've developed this language, and provided it for free.
They've even released the source code. You perceive flaws
that you say must be fixed, but you're not going to help
to fix them.
Agreed. And i am thankful for everyone's contributions. I
can be a bit harsh sometimes but my intention has always
been to improve Python.
I _do_ want you to help to improve the language, and I
don't care if you don't get it right first time. I didn't
get it right first time when I worked on the regex module
(I think that what I have on PyPI is my _third_ attempt!).
Well thanks for admitting you are not perfect. I know i am
not. We all had to start somewhere and anyone who believes
he knows everything is most assuredly a fool. Learning is
a perpetual process, same for software evolution.
> You want to gain my respect? Then start engaging in honest
> debates. Start admitting that yes, somethings about Python
> are not only undesirable, they're just plain wrong.
Python isn't perfect, but then no language is perfect.
There will always be compromises, and the need to maintain
backwards compatibility means that we're stuck with some
"mis-features", but I think it's still worth using; I
still much prefer it to other languages.
I understand. We can't break backwards compatibility for
everything, even breaking it for some large flaws could
cause a fatal abandonment of the language by long time
users.
I just don't understand why i get so much hostility when i
present the flaws for discussion. Part of my intention is to
air the flaw, both for new users and old users, but a larger
intention is to discover the validity of my, or others,
possible solutions.
The problem is in _how_ you do it, namely, very confrontationally.
You call yourself "RantingRick". People don't like ranting!
Instead of saying "This is obviously a flaw, and you're a fool if you
don't agree", you should say "IMHO, this is a flaw, and this is how I
think it could be fixed". Then, if someone points out a problem in your
suggested fix, you can say "OK, I see your point, I'll try to see
whether I can think of a way around that". Etc.
And even if that solution involves a fork, that is not a bad
thing. Creating a new fork and then garnering an acceptance
of the new spinoff would lead to at worse, a waste of time
and a huge learning experience, or at best, an evolution of
the language.
> Stop calling me a troll when i am not. And not just me, stop
> calling other people trolls too! Stop using the personal
> attacks and straw man arguments.
Sorry. I failed to explain that this statement was meant not
directly for you but as a general statement to all members.
Sometimes i feel like my back is against the wall and i'm
fighting several foes at once. That can lead to me getting
defensive.
--
http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
