On May 14, 6:52 pm, Paul Boddie <p...@boddie.org.uk> wrote: > On 14 Mai, 21:14, Patrick Maupin <pmau...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > If Joe downloads and burns a CD for his friend, he may not have the > > sources and may not have any intention of getting them, and probably > > didn't provide a "written offer." What you're "ignoring for the > > moment" is my whole point, that unlike Ubuntu, Joe is now in violation > > of the GPL license, because he provided neither a written offer nor > > source on CD, nor his own download site. > > Now, wait a moment! Your point is that just by giving the binary CD to > someone, you are now in violation of the licence.
Correct -- download an ISO, burn onto CD, hand CD to friend w/o written offer = license violation. > What I tried to > explain is that this situation is anticipated - that the FSF > acknowledges that the recipient won't have received the sources at the > same time in all situations - and that the same distributor is > responsible for providing the sources. Right. That distributor would be Joe. > As long as they don't deny the > recipient access to the sources, by the same means, they are not > violating the licence. But Joe didn't give a written offer, and he doesn't even know how to download the source, and you still haven't showed why that's not a problem for him. > You have a point about recipients not being immediately and obviously > informed of the things they are entitled to, but that is a matter for > the distributing parties to remedy: Well, Joe's the distributor to his friend. He got the stuff from Ubuntu, who will give him source and even have a legal page about it, but Joe didn't bother reading all that stuff. > that is arguably what happens > when, upon loud squealing about matters of "ideology", distributors > decide to de-emphasise the Free Software aspect of their > distributions. Yesterday, you were telling me I should inform Ubuntu that they didn't have enough license information prominently available in the right places. Are you now claiming that that's simply because people like me told Ubuntu that they were emphasizing the license information too much? In any case, Ubuntu prominently describes "The Ubuntu Promise" with a link to more information from their front page. Of course, the download button is prominent as well. > Nevertheless, it is my understanding that anyone > attempting to use or install such distributions do get to see a > summary of the licences; Yes, and we all know that everybody has been trained to fully read and understand every single license the click on when installing software. > only people who pass on the software without > inspecting it (which would involve actually inserting the CD and > booting from it) will be unaware of its contents, Well, to make what I said in my previous comment more clear, I believe that Joe would have actually installed the software himself without bothering to read the license. This may be foolish of Joe, but he is in excellent company -- in one recent unscientific yet (IMO) well- constructed study, only 12% of users bothered to read the license at all: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/17/gamestation-grabs-souls-o_n_541549.html > and they could only > be held responsible as reasonably as one's Internet service provider > if that party were asked to provide source packages for "that Linux > distro I downloaded last year". You still haven't yet provided any credible evidence for this version of the chain of responsibility. But in any case, I suspect Joe would have actually installed the software without bothering to read any license information. > You also have a point about whether people are able to provide sources > at a later date, which might be troublesome if someone gave someone > else a CD with an old version of Ubuntu on it and then were asked to > provide the source packages. Bingo! My hypothetical Joe would be in serious hot water at this point. > Naturally, the FSF have attempted to > address these points in version 3 of the GPL. And I submit that they addressed the problem by making it really clear that yes, it is Joe's responsibility, in section 6. > I would be interested to > hear the opinion of the FSF and distributors on this matter, but I > think it's absurd to accuse the FSF as operating as you allege > Microsoft do, especially as the distributors are the ones who > encourage the sharing of the installation media. Well, it's really the entire ecosystem. I have to believe that everybody at the FSF knows how this works, and even though RMS is a shrinking violet, I suspect that if he seriously cared about this, he would work up the courage to address it publicly, much as it pains him to share his opinions. > Really, if you think distributions should do a better job at educating > their users and helping them uphold any obligations that may apply to > them, you should talk to them about it. I seriously don't think they, or the FSF, are interested in this, and I don't think they will harass Joe in any case. My whole point is that I believe they *could*, and if several people on this thread can't either (1) understand and believe that; or (2) provide credible reasons why I am mistaken, after umpteen posts on several days on this issue, then the entire issue of actual compliance to the license in a practical fashion (where I consider downloading and burning a DVD of source to go along with every CD of object impractical) is really a lot trickier than some people are making it out to be. This bolsters my personal opinion that one rational response to this complexity is to avoid the license when possible. > But when I attempt to work > though the issues in a thorough manner in order to thrash out what it > is you really object to - and in practice, the only objections you can > seriously have lie in those two points I mention above (not this > "instant violation" situation, discussed in more detail elsewhere [*]) It's my opinion that the decision to let Joe off the hook is strategic. Nobody's going to bother Joe, but they *could*. But there's no percentage in it. I don't actually object to the strategic decision. It's a marketing decision designed to increase the reach of the software. Yet instead of embracing the decision yourself, you not only deny it, but accuse me of bad faith in even suggesting that it could be a deliberate strategy. > - and all you can do is suggest that other people are trying to > mislead you, I struggle to feel inclined to indulge you further. I'm suggesting that some other people should consider that perhaps my viewpoint, while admittedly biased (as are all viewpoints) is not all that inconsistent with reality. > And suggesting that people have behavioural disorders ("Or because > have OCD?") might be a source of amusement to you, or may be a neat > debating trick in certain circles you admire, but rest assured that I > am neither amused nor impressed, nor are others likely to be. That was in an honest response to a question you asked "Really, if at this point you think I'm playing games with you." where I explained that I don't know what to think, because often, when you claimed to be addressing my point, you would bring up other red herrings and spend more time on those, and often assign positions to me that I never took. When I suggested maybe you don't read carefully enough, you claimed that's not the root of the problem, so I really don't know what it is, other than that maybe you need to calm down and reread what I posted and what you are planning to respond with before pushing "send". It's really very annoying to be expected to defend positions I didn't take and statements I didn't make and to have most of your comments have a subtle dig at my motivations. I honestly don't know what makes you do that, but it certainly does not bring out the best in me. I will try to do better if you do too. (BTW, IMO this was one of your better posts in terms of tone and being on-point, etc., and I appreciate that.) Regards, Pat -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
