Joe Strout wrote: > On Oct 29, 2008, at 4:52 PM, Fuzzyman wrote: > >> You're pretty straightforwardly wrong. In Python the 'value' of a >> variable is not the reference itself. > > That's the misconception that is leading some folks around here into > tangled nots of twisty mislogic, ultimately causing them to make up new > terms for what every other modern language is perfectly happy calling > Call-By-Value. > I tried hard to make myself believe that the above was a clever pun and knot [sic] a typo. Sadly I failed.
> I've thought a lot about why this misconception is so widespread here, > and I think it must be one of the following: > > 1. There was one community leader with this idea, who has been > successful at promoting it widely, much to the detriment of all; or, > > 2. Because everything in Python is an object, you're not forced to think > clearly (and more generally) about references as values as you are in > languages (such as Java, VB.NET, etc.) which have both simple types and > object types. > How about 3. You just hate being wrong. > Either way, it's wrong (or at least, a needlessly complicated way of > looking at things). > One that has apparently served for almost twenty years now. >> .NET does draw a distinction between 'value types' and reference types >> - where using reference types are called by reference (the reference >> is passed) and value types are called by value (the value itself is >> copied). > > Quite right. Now, note that "ByRef" and "ByVal" apply to both. > Generalize to Python. There you go. > > Best, > - Joe > > P.S. I really am trying to quit responding to this thread. Sometimes > the urge is too strong. But I'll keep trying! > We must tax your patience dreadfully. I have suffered from the same myself, but I fear we are doomed to pursue each other until Godwin's law releases us. Which reminds me, had you thought about submitting a paper along these lines to PyCon? If we meet at PyCon at least let me buy you a pint to show there are no hard feelings. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +1 571 484 6266 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC http://www.holdenweb.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
