[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Feb 11, 1:35�am, Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...] >>>> After all, they have already given freely and generously, and if they >>>> choose >>>> not to give more on top of that, it's really up to them. >>> Right. Get people to commit and then abandon them. Nice. >> Anyone who committed to Python did so without being battered by a >> multi-million dollar advertising campaign. > > Multi-million dollar ad campaigns mean nothing to me. > I committed to Python because it's a great language. > I've dabbled in perl, Visual BASIC, UBASIC, REXX, Java, > Scheme, C and C++ but Python is the one I use. > Yes, but your decision must surely have been an informed one, and there must surely be reasons why Python remains your choice.
>> The Python Software >> Foundation has only recently dipped its toes in the advocacy waters, >> with results that are still under evaluation. And the use of the >> Microsoft "free" VC6 SDK was never a part of the "official" means of >> producing Python or its extensions, it was a community-developed >> solution to the lack of availability of a free VS-compatible compilation >> system for extension modules. >> >> I agree that there are frustrations involved with maintaining extension >> modules on the Windows platform without having a copy of Visual Studio >> (of the correct version) available. One of the reasons Python still uses >> an outdated version of VS is to avoid forcing people to upgrade. Any >> such decision will have fallout. > > Such as anyone who tries to get in the game late. > I'm afraid it does seem to work out like that, yes. >> An update is in the works for those >> using more recent releases, > > That's good news, although the responsible thing > to do was not relaease version 2.5 until such issues > are resolved. > Well that would be an issue for the release team. I'm not sure what Anthony Baxter (the release manager) would have to say in response to this point. >> but that won't help users who don't have >> access to Visual Studio. > > That can be solved by throwing money at the problem. > But money doesn't help when the solution is on the > far side of the moon. > I see your problem, but I don't know what I can do to help you. There were also, as I remember it, issues with the updated version of Visual Studio being non-conformant with standards in some significant way, but I never took part in the discussions on those issues. >>>> Yes, it's >>>> occasionally very frustrating to the rest of us, but that's life. >>> As the Kurds are well aware. >> I really don't think you help your argument by trying to draw parallels >> between the problems of compiler non-availability and those of a >> population subject to random genocide. > > You missed the point of the analogy. > Perhaps because it wasn't a very good one? > The US government suggested to the oppressed tribes > in Iraq that they should rise up and overthrow > Saddam Hussein at the end of the first Gulf War. > And what did the US government do when they rose up? > Nothing. They were left to twist in the wind. > >> Try to keep things in perspective, please. > > See if you can see the similarity. > > I buy into Python. I spend a lot of effort > developing a math library based on GMPY to use > in my research. I discover a bug in GMPY and > actually go to a lot of effort and solve it. > But _I_ can't even use it because I've been > left to twist in the wind by the fact that > Python 2.5 for Windows was built with an > obsolete compiler that's not even available. > > Luckily, unlike the Kurds, my situation had > a happy ending, someone else compiled the fixed > GMPY source and made a 2.5 Windows version > available. But can anyone say what will happen > the next time? > Presumably not. I presume you have been reporting your bugs through the Sourceforge project to keep the developers in touch with the issues you have found? Normally a package's maintainers will produce updated installers, but this behaviour is unreliable and (no pun intended) patchy sometimes. >>>> The best I feel I can do is raise these things on occasion, >>>> on the off-chance that I manage to catch the attention of >>>> someone who is >>>> altruistic, knowledgeable, and who has some spare time on >>>> their hands! >>> Someone who, say, solved the memory leak in the GMPY >>> divm() function even though he had no way of compiling >>> the source code? >>> Just think of what such an altruistic, knowedgeable >>> person could do if he could use the current VC compiler >>> or some other legally available compiler. >> Your efforts would probably be far better spent trying to build a >> back-end for mingw or some similar system into Python's development >> system, to allow Python for Windows to be built on a regular rather than >> a one-off basis using a completely open source tool chain. > > No, as I said elsewhere, I'm not a software developer, > I'm an amateur math researcher. My efforts are best spent > as an actual end user to find and report bugs that the > developers never see. Remember, a programmer, because he > wrote it, only _thinks_ he knows how the program works. > Whereas I, the user, _know_ how it works. > >> The fact that the current maintainers of the Windows side of Python >> choose to use a commercial tool to help them isn't something I am going >> to try and second-guess. To do so would be to belittle efforts I would >> have no way of duplicating myself, and I have far too much respect for >> those efforts to do so. > > And I respect those efforts too. What I don't respect > is irresponsible behaviour. > >> There are published ways to build extension modules for Windows using >> mingw, by the way - have you tried any of them? > > Yeah, and got nowhere. > >> It's much harder than sniping on a newsgroup, > > That figures. You try and contribute and you get > accused of being a troll. > I wasn't accusing you of being a troll, rather bemoaning your (in my opinion) less-than-constructive tone. The points you raise are important, and I do feel that there ought to be easier solutions for people in your position. >> but you earn rather more kudos. > > Guess what kudos I got for solving the GMPY divm() > problem? None. How much effort would it have been > to mention my contribution in the source code > comments (as was the case for other contributers)? > Not that I'm bitter, after all, I'm altruistic. > I'm sure if you've made a contribution to the code you only have to ask for your name to be added as a contributor to be mentioned in the source. > By the way, on the sci.math newsgroup I promote > Python every chance I get. One fellow thanked me > profusely for recommending Python & GMPY and asked > for some help with a program he was having problems > with. We worked it out fine but his problem made me > suspect there may be more bugs in GMPY. What's my > motivation for tracking them down? > The satisfaction of a job well done? What's my motivation for acting as a director of the Python Software Foundation when I get accusations of irresponsibility? Anyway, thanks for taking the time to help maintain gmpy. This thread is starting to make me think that there's a case to be made for somehow providing supported build facilities for third-party extension modules. This wouldn't be a simple project, but since there's a Windows buildbot for Python there's no reason why the same couldn't be done for extensions. I'll raise this with the PSF and see what the response is: then your carping will at least have had some positive effect ;-) Stick with it, and let's try to make things better. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC/Ltd http://www.holdenweb.com Skype: holdenweb http://del.icio.us/steve.holden Blog of Note: http://holdenweb.blogspot.com See you at PyCon? http://us.pycon.org/TX2007 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
