Pete, It isn't nor has it ever been a matter of opinion. The Bible states in multiple unambigious verses that salvation is by faith alone - NOT OF WORKS. You would have to cut our Eph 2:8,9 and much of Romans to hold any other opinion. Your senior pastor is dead wrong and frankly, you should go to another church. Someone who gets one of the central tenets of theology dead wrong isn't someone I'd trust on anything else and nor should you. You are right: believing (faith) is the easy part. Living up to the standard expected is another thing. But that isn't a standard of SALVATION. It is a standard of life that no-one could ever adhere to. If you accept a doctrine of salvation by works then you must also accept that no one could be saved (which was kinda the point of the Law). Hence Jesus comes onto the scene with salvation by FAITH - the only thing that works.
Geoff Flight General Manager Sustainable Resources Industry Training Pty Ltd -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pete Theisen Sent: Monday, 8 November 2010 5:27 PM To: ProFox Email List Subject: Re: [OT] On christian mythology geoff wrote: > You just asked one of the central questions of the Reformation - and got it > wrong. Salvation is by faith alone - not of works (eph 2: 8,9). And it > really IS that clear. Hi Geoff, It is a central question, but not all in the reformed tradition see "faith alone" as the way to God. I go to a Presbyterian Church where the senior pastor believes that both faith and good works are required. The ones before her did too. Consider the scripture where Jesus says he will evaluate people on whether or not they fed the hungry, etc. Is not feeding the hungry a good work? The Bible speaks to both sides of the issue: faith is necessary in some verses, good works are necessary in others. Therefore, I conclude both are necessary. And it was you who used the phrase "Get that wrong". Believing is nearly impossible to get wrong - just believe - takes not even one calorie of effort, the good works and avoiding sins - that is the hard part. How's work going? >> What did you get out of Romans then? That your salvation is dependent on >> your works? ON ensuring that you never make a mistake? Or is it soley >> dependant on the perfect work of Christ on the cross? Does Rev 3:20 mean >> anything to you in regards to 'choice'? > Well, to begin with, there is that radical stuff about "obedience that > comes from faith" You believe, but you have to obey as well? > > That sounds like Faith AND good works. > >>> Yikes... >>> >>> I am supposedly at work but I will leave Publius to write a extensive >>> treatise on Grace and how it covers ALL sins. And yes, running a nazi >> death >>> camp does not exclude you from the grace of God. That is kinda the point >> of >>> Grace. And there is no 'grace list'. And Grace IS sufficient. I would >>> suggest a reading of the book of Romans for you. It covers such issues >>> extensively. Hebrews wouldn't be a bad adjunct as well. >> Oh, it is Monday in Australia! I have read Romans and Hebrews - several >> times. I must say I got an entirely different impression than you did. >> >> So everyone gets Grace, and it is sufficient. How can you "screw it up", >> as you put it, then? I mean, Jews, Palestinians, Nazis and pedophile >> priests all make the cut, so . . -- Regards, Pete http://pete-theisen.com/ http://elect-pete-theisen.com/ [excessive quoting removed by server] _______________________________________________ Post Messages to: [email protected] Subscription Maintenance: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profox OT-free version of this list: http://leafe.com/mailman/listinfo/profoxtech Searchable Archive: http://leafe.com/archives/search/profox This message: http://leafe.com/archives/byMID/profox/[email protected] ** All postings, unless explicitly stated otherwise, are the opinions of the author, and do not constitute legal or medical advice. This statement is added to the messages for those lawyers who are too stupid to see the obvious.
