! << The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib ! ! Of course it is. How can you possibly compare indoor plumbing to war?
Jeez Dominic do I have to spell it out? Because we are not 'making war' for the sake of killing people so that we can have more misery and death captured on gruesome photographs, as Ed crudely claims. He is appealing to emotion---the natural human reaction to seeing the images---and impugning motives (as if to say, see what monsters they are, the people who support this policy) in order to set up an unsound syllogism---"To be for the policy of liberating Iraq from the terrorists and thugs you must be for babies getting killed and families torn apart. Since no human can possibly be for that (just look at the gruesome images and ask your own heart!), people who support the policy must be inhumane." He was analogously saying that people who ostensibly advocate something positive (say, indoor plumbing) REALLY advocate its dark side (more stink and sewage). ! To my knowledge, indoor plumbing has never killed anyone, or ! resulted in ! civil war. How many women and children have been killed from indoor ! plumbing? I think you have over stepped the mark in bad ! taste here Bob. I think I was using the analogy to illustrate the absurdity of Ed's renowned and esteemed logic. Ed was the one IMHO who stepped over the line. I don't advocate hiding the images and the reality of war's dark side, but I also think the desire to use them in the way Ed and then Dave Crozier advocates is simply because they know the images can be used to cloud logic with emotion to the benefit of their policy position. Fine propagandize all you want with the images (people use this tactic all the time, regardless of political persuasion)---not even knowing (as the author of the article admitted he didn't know) when or how most of the images came about. The implication was that they were all victims of American bombing, but in case you didn't notice most of the bombs in the last three years have been going off because Iraqi reactionaries and foreign terrorists have been engaged in a campaign to produce as many of those pictures as they can in order to weaken our resolve to defeat them and reassert authoritarian control over the Iraqi population. The only people who advocate those images are the terrorists and people over here who want to use them for the same purpose as the terrorists: to defeat the people who advocate democratic reform in the middle east. ! ! I understand the point you are making, and why. But I do not see how ! cheapening the deaths of Iraqi civilians to an analogy with indoor ! plumbing moves the issue forward. I don't see how accusing people who support the policy of wanting more of those images depicting human tragedy in the ME moves the issue forward either. I can speak for my own motivations, I don't need Ed explaining to everybody what I "really" think. It's funny how these same people object to constantly showing pictures of the twin towers collapsing, or Iraqis with their hands chopped off or husbands being executed and wives and daughters being raped by Hussein's thugs, or images of the people Saddam gassed, or pictures of the mass burials and beheadings in Iraq. (Other images that the media doesn't display often enough.) Obviously, if Ed's logic were true, people who oppose the policy are for *more* of *that*. </sarcasm> - Bob ! ! Regards ! ! Dominic Burford BSc Hons MBCS CITP ! Third Party Developer Program Senior Software Engineer ! ! * Tel: +44 (0) 1536 495074 ! * [EMAIL PROTECTED] ! ! "I conclude that there are two ways of constructing a software design: ! One way is to make it so simple there are obviously no ! deficiencies, and ! the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious ! deficiencies." -- Tony Hoare, Turing Award Lecture 1980 ! ! ! -----Original Message----- ! From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On ! Behalf Of Bob Calco ! Sent: 20 June 2006 02:35 ! To: 'ProFox Email List' ! Subject: RE: [OT] Images of war ! ! ! It's always interesting to hear war spoken about as something ! ! ! glorious, when those who have actually been in battle will tell you ! ! ! that it is horrific. Yet our war-supporting media is filtering out ! ! the disturbing images coming out of Iraq so as not to turn ! ! the public ! ! against the war. ! ! ! ! It's important to look at these images, and realize ! ! that people who ! ! are calling for continuing this war are endorsing these images, and ! ! ! calling for more of them. No sugar-coating; this is what they are ! ! supporting. ! ! ! ! <http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/37572/> ! ! ! ! ( -or- http://tinyurl.com/oq6qf ) ! ! ! It's always fascinating to listen to indoor plumbing spoken of as ! something civilized and wonderful, when those who have worked ! in sewage ! plants know that the shit really stinks. Yet our ! pro-sanitation media is ! filtering out the disturbing images one can easily find in any city ! waste disposal plant on the planet, so as not to turn the ! public against ! indoor plumbing. ! ! It's important to look at these images, and realize people who are ! calling for more water and sewage treatment plants are endorsing these ! images, and are calling for more of them. No sugar coating; ! this is what ! they are supporting. ! ! http://www.cormix.info/images/3,NGSPicturePak%2335,Sewage.jpg ! http://www.sas.org.uk/pr/images04/sewage.jpg ! http://www.pepa.com.hk/gallery/photos/pollution/SEWAGE.jpg ! http://www.enviro-lynx.com/stock-photography/images/Sewage%20Overflow. ! jpg ! http://www.allanindustries.com/images/Sewage-1.jpg ! http://www.holidaytravelwatch.net/Images/gallery/photos/Original%20Fil ! es/San%20Andres%20raw%20sewage%20swamp.JPG ! http://www.cleansafeservices.co.uk/sewage.phtm ! http://www.afpc.org/images2/DPIS0904/sewage.jpg ! http://www.geocities.com/icandigital/sewage.jpg ! ! On a serious note, appeals to emotion and impugning of ! motives are part ! of Ed's famous double standard (OK if he does it, if others ! do it from a ! different perspective they're twits); nevertheless, I should like to ! clarify that I am not in favor of blowing up women and ! children. I am in ! favor of blowing up terrorists and dictators, who unfortunately happen ! to enjoy blowing up women and children. I'm also in favor of other ! people -- yea, even people who aren't white and don't live in upstate ! New York -- enjoying economic liberty and political freedom. ! This would ! include even Iraqis. ! ! The analogy to indoor plumbing isn't entirely glib. The idea is that ! there is dirty work in any worthwhile civilized thing, some ! of which is ! not for the weak of stomach. The people we are engaged in fighting are ! literally scum of the earth---truly bloodthirsty thugs with no regard ! for humanity or the rules of war let alone the Marcus of Queensbury ! rules we're supposed to use when confronting them. This inclination to ! want to paint our soldiers and our leaders in that conspiratorial and ! clandestine light, as if the poor hapless Saddams and Zarqawis and Kim ! Il Sungs and mullahs of the world are innocent -- what was ! Bill's term? ! -- _casualties_ of the "warmongers" in Washington is offensive to me, ! but alas, people are entitled to hold their opinions, however silly. ! ! I don't support innocent people losing their lives in these ! conflicts---but how do you avoid that and still confront the thugs and ! murderers who thrive on it? No, Kofi Annan isn't the answer; not even ! close. You can't negotiate with these murderers. What's your bright ! idea? I think knocking out regimes that support them and helping the ! formerly oppressed people get on their own feet is a noble ! thing, albeit ! riskier than negotiating with dictators for cheap oil and turning a ! blind eye to their repressive regimes (which was what we did ! for decades ! previously). ! ! Anyway thanks Ed for the opportunity to clarify. ! ! - Bob ! ! ! ! ! ! -- Ed Leafe ! ! -- http://leafe.com ! ! -- http://dabodev.com ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! 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