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On Mon, Jan 20, 2025 at 5:39 AM William Hooper via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > unsubscribe please > retiring > > > from my iPhone 9 > > On Jan 19, 2025, at 12:39, plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org wrote: > > Send PLUG-discuss mailing list submissions to > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > plug-discuss-requ...@lists.phxlinux.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > plug-discuss-ow...@lists.phxlinux.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of PLUG-discuss digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript (James Dugger) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2025 02:15:37 -0700 > From: James Dugger <james.dug...@gmail.com> > To: Main PLUG discussion list <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> > Subject: Re: WordPress Move to JavaScript > Message-ID: > <caoxwihi_qgwmhkfdcgnb0rhsrnahaq9+tvn+durbfmkzgcu...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I know this is old but thought I would add some perspective. WordPress' > plugin ecosystem is too big. Its primary audience is what I call site > builders - individuals with some coding experience mainly in html, and CSS > and maybe a bit of javascript's jquery library. Although that latter is > probably pushing it. I went to WordCamp 8 years ago in Phoenix as a GoDaddy > rep. Most of the people and even the talks were geared towards non-coding > professionals. Most people there wouldn't have been able to explain what > an object was in any language and couldn't blueprint a class declaration or > any of its mechanics. > > Where do they go - If they don't want to pay for real development they head > to Squarespace or Weebly or other no-code solutions. > > Most of the use cases for WordPress I am familiar with are for small > businesses. Most hosting companies have auto site builders that construct > the website in 30 seconds. But then people quickly get bogged down in even > finding, picking, installing and implementing the plugins correctly after > the initial build. Often they are left with hacked, or bloated sites that > leave them exposed and filled with malware. I helped an agency clean up a > WordPress website for a plastic surgeon where the MySQL database had been > injected with Russian phishing data. The site was 5 years old and I found > over 150k nefarious entries that had to be cleaned up and removed. > > Later I worked for a tech firm that consults for large corporate clients > that use WordPress for limited sites, like a digital magazine for high end > real estate holdings, almost like a brochure version of Architectural > Digest. In these cases WP works because we would limit the number of > plugins and user interaction with the site. We could have easily built > these sites without WP and often did, but if they were going to maintain > the site the contracts would dictate that we had to build it in WP. > > I think that the current metrics are around 43% of the web uses WordPress. > I would estimate that easily 70% of the database and the codebase in WP is > for managing the application and has little to do with the actual visual > website that the general public see and interact with - excluding ecommerce > and subscription-based web apps that need user account transactions. A > typical WP site is over 1 million lines of code. > > But when the same companies hired us to build enterprise-based solutions > and wanted a PHP-based web application the choices were usually Drupal for > sites that needed a CMS and Laravel for sites that didn't. Even if they > wanted a SPA (single page application) like React, Angular, or Vue, we > recommended the backend be built in Laravel and not Express (Node). Drupal > is based on the Symfony PHP framework and Laravel hooks into it. Symfony is > by far the most well supported open source PHP solution. The irony is that > there are enough good libraries both on the JavaScript and PHP that are > better written, more secure, and just as easy to implement than going to a > WP-based approach. Plus I have to wonder what is going on with Automatic > and WP Engine and what is the future of WordPress. > > For sites that need to be sped up and are limited to remain on older server > instances. My advice is to simplify the code base as much as possible. So > roll your own framework or use a lightweight MVC framework. Turn on opcode > (APC) and object caching (Redis) and if you are using Apache as your > Webserver play with the MaxClient settings to dial in the amount of > preforking that Apache does. Setting the number too high in MySQL will > cause thrashing when the database constantly has to write data out to the > disk to clear up memory to add threads. Or switch to Nginx as the > webserver. > > Package These up in a Docker container or containers (web server, database > server) running a lightweight Linux instance and you have a portable web > application that can be installed anywhere and spun up in seconds. > > On Fri, Nov 15, 2024 at 12:17?PM Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss < > plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > > > Thank You David, > > > > I agree WordPress is bloated and it is one-size-fits-all. I saw a video > > recently that WordPress has 40% market share. > > > > I am hoping to build my own infrastructure within a year and a half. > > > > I think potentially the back end JS issue is my problem. That is why I > > mentioned my daily driver is a 10 year old Dell with an i5 and 16G of > > RAM. It is running an SSD that helps. Seems 32G is the minimum > > now....Yikes > > > > Another issue is Google has removed 12 of my articles because of > > redirects. I've looked at it several times and cannot figure it out. I > > did not add the redirects. I wonder if it is WordPress that is doing > > something. > > > > Other than a more powerful CPU and more RAM what is the solution? Is > > there a point when people start to exit WordPress, and where do they go? > > > > > > > > > > On 2024-11-13 12:47, David Schwartz via PLUG-discuss wrote: > >> Javascript runs in the browser. Most issues I hear about and encounter > >> myself end up being browser-related. > >> > >> You mentined all of the things that aren?t connected to JS, and did not > >> mention the one(s) that are. JS is the primary source of problems > >> today. And hackers that break into the back-end. > >> > >> I operate almost exclusively on Macs and my Android phone, and I?ve got > >> between three and six browsers on each one. None of them work the same > >> ? which is to say, when I run into a problem on one, I can usually > >> solve it by switching to another browser. Every week it?s something > >> different. > >> > >> The source of the problem is not worth my time to figure it out, and > >> it?s really easy to switch to another browser. > >> > >> Don?t blame php or the back-end for quirks that are endemic to JS > >> running in one specific browser. Even updates of the same browser can > >> behave differently. And the behavior on the same browser can change > >> from one day to the next, or one hour to the next. Nobody is changing > >> the back-end that frequently, I can assure you. It?s the libraries the > >> pages are loading up, or the code the site?s developers changed last > >> night. > >> > >> I?ve been writing code in Delphi using TMS WEB Core, which is available > >> both as a Delphi addon and a standalone package that runs in Visual > >> Studio Code. It takes Delphi code (Object Pascal) and translates it > >> into JS and packages it up so it runs in the browser. NONE of it is > >> running in the back-end! It?s 100% browser based. And 100% of the weird > >> issues I have are all browser related. Sure, there are bugs in the > >> platform, but they are typically reproduced the same in every browser. > >> Browser issues show up differently in one browser, maybe two, but not > >> in all of them. > >> > >> A lot of browsers are using the Chromium engine, so quirks in it can be > >> reflected elsewhere, but they usually need to be running the same > >> version of the engine for them to show up. > >> > >> It used to be that you had to test software on different machines from > >> different vendors, different versions of Windows or MacOS, and it cost > >> you a lot of money to have all of those combinations of software and > >> hardware available for testing. > >> > >> Today you just need to test on one hardware platform with variations of > >> browsers loaded on it, probably running in separate VMs or docker > >> images to ensure you test with different versions of Chromium and > >> whatnot. > >> > >> Same old sh*t, different approach. > >> > >> As far as WP goes, I think it?s internal architecture has become > >> obsolete. Layers and layers of crap have been added to convert > >> asynchronous events into something that serializes them, and the people > >> writing plugins and themes are mostly inexperienced coders who don?t > >> have a clue what?s what. Meanwhile there are people who have nothing > >> else to do with their life but find ways to sneak into cracks and > >> crevices in the back-end, and sometimes wide-open doors, left by said > >> inexperienced coders who didn?t do a good job testing their code. ?It > >> works! Ship it!? > >> > >> The UX/UI logic is all being pushed out to the browser, and the > >> business logic is being hidden behind REST APIs. I can build something > >> in TMS WEB Core way faster than it takes to build in WP ? it runs > >> faster, is more solid, and is far easier to maintain. That can probably > >> be said of most JS-based UX/UI dev tools today. > >> > >> The problem with Wordpress is ? it?s Wordpress. The UX/UI is tightly > >> coupled to the back-end because all of the user?s state is managed in > >> the back-end. And it?s not an API, but just a huge mess of functions > >> that are designed to be hijacked by programmers to get it to do pretty > >> much anything out of the ordinary ? if you can?t get it to support > >> something in the UI, you need to build a plugin or theme to add it. And > >> that code lives on the BACK-END and is susceptible to all of the myriad > >> ways there are for hackers to throw sand in the gears. The whole damn > >> platform is open to anybody who wants to poke and prod it?s guts! They > >> even added an API but nobody uses it. > >> > >> If I need something to work a certain way using WEB Core, I can easily > >> program it. I hide necessary business logic behind an authenticated > >> REST API and the JS in the browser manages it all. The events are all > >> asynchronous and I don?t have to worry about someone hacking into the > >> back-end code and hijacking everything. I can build the services in any > >> language and host it on any platform I want. > >> > >> In WP, you have to build a plugin and plan to maintain it as further WP > >> updates will very likely break it in some unexpected way. Or if not the > >> WP code than maybe one of the UI libs you?re working with change and > >> someone updated a theme that loads a different version and screws up > >> your code. > >> > >> IMHO, WP is just a big fat ugly mess that only gets worse over time. > >> > >> Just switch to a no-code / low-code solution that lets you custom-build > >> what you need, and that isn?t dependent on dozens of things that can > >> change from week to week and month to month as the underlying platform > >> is patched to fix newly-discovered exploits and the UI libs get updated > >> by updates in the plugins and themes. > >> > >> -David Schwartz > >> > >> > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 13, 2024, at 9:12 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss > >>> <plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> Hi, > >>> > >>> This is kind of off topic, however WordPress is Open Source and I > >>> would expect that the vast majority of WordPress is run on LAMP > >>> servers. > >>> > >>> My daily driver is a 10 year old Dell that has an i5 with 16G of RAM > >>> that runs Kubuntu 24.04lts. > >>> > >>> I am running a blog using WordPress that is hosted on an Ubuntu > >>> server. > >>> > >>> I am having issues with the WordPress Gutenberg back end. I cannot > >>> get it to do the things I want to do like bold text. At times is is > >>> sluggish. I've read that WordPress has a 10 year plan to move to > >>> JavaScript. There is not a lot of info available so it is unclear if > >>> the PHP code will be replaced as well. If WordPress replaces the PHP > >>> back end I will leave WordPress. As it is WordPress is hanging by a > >>> thread. > >>> > >>> These problems are new. I am also having formatting issues which might > >>> be due to my theme. > >>> > >>> Is anyone having these issues or maybe other issues with WordPress? > >>> > >>> Ultimately I may create my own infrastructure or start building my own > >>> theme. > >>> > >>> Any feedback is very welcome. > >>> > >>> Keith > >>> --------------------------------------------------- > >>> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > >>> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >>> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------- > >> PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > >> To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > >> https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > --------------------------------------------------- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > > > -- > James > > *Linkedin <http://www.linkedin.com/pub/james-h-dugger/15/64b/74a/>* > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://lists.phxlinux.org/pipermail/plug-discuss/attachments/20250118/01809e07/attachment-0001.htm > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > _______________________________________________ > PLUG-discuss mailing list - PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > > > ------------------------------ > > End of PLUG-discuss Digest, Vol 235, Issue 15 > ********************************************* > --------------------------------------------------- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen
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