PS: I should make it clear that I do not expect anArray asString to work for *all* arrays. In my Smalltalk, #(true false) asString raises an exception, and so does #(65 66 67) asString.
On Sat, 16 May 2020 at 00:42, Richard O'Keefe <rao...@gmail.com> wrote: > Why does it make no sense? > To a first approximation, > aCollection asWHATEVER > = > WHATEVER withAll: aCollection > > Consider > 'CAB' asSet > 'CAB' asArray > 'CAB' asSortedCollection > 'CAB' asBag > and so on. They all mean "an instance of the class named > in the selector with the elements of the receiver." > Why should #asString be any different? > > Why on earth does #($a $b $c) asString make no sense > when #($a $b $c) as: String > -- which we expect to do the same thing -- DOES apparently > make sense? > > Note that when I'm talking about #asString, I haven't the slightest > thought in my mind about user interfaces. I am talking about a > selector in the 'converting' category which I expect to act just > like other methods in the same category. I am talking about > expecting _ as: String and _ asString to be consistent the way > that _ as: Array and _ asArray are. I am talking about "if it > is OK to convert a String to an Array, why can't I convert that > Array back to a String using the same pattern of code"? > > #printString exists. > #storeString exists. > #displayString exists -- although I have never seen a clear description of > exactly what it is supposed to do and how it is supposed to differ from > #printString, and it is certainly not portable. > > If I want the effect of any one of these, I am going to use it and NOT > #asString. If I want to convert an Array or a Set to a String with the > same elements, I am going to expect #asString to do it. When #asString is > inconsistent with all the other #asWHATEVER methods, I am going to regard > it as a bug. > > How about a compromise? > > Collection>>asString > ^(self allSatisfy: [:each | each isCharacter]) > ifTrue: [String withAll: self] > ifFalse: [super asString] > > > > > > On Fri, 15 May 2020 at 02:30, Stéphane Ducasse <stephane.duca...@inria.fr> > wrote: > >> >> >> On 11 May 2020, at 23:19, Richard O'Keefe <rao...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> I was saying that I expected #($a $b $c) asString ==> 'abc’. >> >> >> To me it makes no sense. >> I do not understand what is asString in fact. >> >> >> If you want something that can be read back, that's what #storeString is >> for, >> >> On Tue, 12 May 2020 at 01:28, Stéphane Ducasse >> <stephane.duca...@inria.fr> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On 5 May 2020, at 16:16, Richard O'Keefe <rao...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> By the way, while playing with this problem, I ran into a moderately >> painful issue. >> >> There is a reason that Smalltalk has both #printString (to get a >> printable representation of an object) and #asString (to convert a >> sequence to another kind of sequence with the same elements.) If I >> *want* #printString, I know where to find it. The definition in my >> Smalltalk no reads >> >> asString >> "What should #($a $b $c) do? >> - Blue Book, Inside Smalltalk, Apple Smalltalk-80: >> there is no #asString. >> - ANSI, VW, Dolphin, CSOM: >> #asString is defined on characters and strings >> (and things like file names and URIs that are sort of strings), >> so expect an error report. >> - VisualAge Smalltalk: >> '($a $b $c)' >> - Squeak and Pharo: >> '#($a $b $c)' >> - GNU Smalltalk, Smalltalk/X, and astc: >> 'abc' >> I don't intend any gratuitous incompatibility, but when there >> is no consensus to be compatible with, one must pick something, >> and this seems most useful. >> " >> ^String withAll: self >> >> Does anyone here know WHY Squeak and Pharo do what they do here? >> >> >> Oops I did not see the quotes on my screen.. >> >> #( a b c) asString >> >> '#(#a #b #c)’ >> >> >> this is unclear to me why this is not good but I have no strong opinion >> that this is good. >> >> I worked on printString for literals because I wanted to have >> self evaluating properties for basic literal like in Scheme and others. >> where >> #t >> >> >> #t >> >> And I payed attention that we get the same for literal arrays. >> Now the conversion is open to me. >> >> #($a $b $c) asString >> >> >> '#($a $b $c)’ >> >> In fact I do not really understand why a string >> >> #($a $b $c) asString would be '(a b c)’ >> and its use >> if this is to nicely display in the ui I would have >> displayString doing it. >> >> S. >> >> >> >> On Wed, 6 May 2020 at 01:20, Richard O'Keefe <rao...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> The irony is that the code I was responding to ISN'T obviously correct. >> Indeed, I found it rather puzzling. >> The problem specification says that the input string may contain digits >> AND SPACES. The original message includes this: >> >> Strings of length 1 or less are not valid. Spaces are allowed in the >> input, but they should be stripped before checking. All other >> non-digit characters are disallowed. >> >> Now it isn't clear what "disallowed" means. I took it to mean "may occur >> and >> should simply mean the input is rejected as invalid." Perhaps "may not >> occur" >> was the intention. So we shall not quibble about such characters. >> >> But I can't for the life of me figure out how Trygve's code checks for >> spaces. >> One reason this is an issue is that the behaviour of #digitValue is not >> consistent between systems. >> Character space digitValue >> does not exist in the ANSI standard >> answers -1 in many Smalltalks (which is a pain) >> answers a positive integer that can't be mistake for a digit in my >> Smalltalk >> raises an exception in some Smalltalks. >> >> This is a comment I now have in my Smalltalk library for #digitValue >> "This is in the Blue Book, but unspecified on non-digits. >> Squeak, Pharo, Dolphin, VW, VAST, and Apple Smalltalk-80 >> answer -1 for characters that are not digits (or ASCII letters), >> which is unfortunate but consistent with Inside Smalltalk >> which specifies this result for non-digits. >> ST/X and GST raise an exception which is worse. >> Digitalk ST/V documentation doesn't specify the result. >> This selector is *much* easier to use safely if it >> returns a 'large' (>= 36) value for non-digits." >> >> Let's compare three versions, the two I compared last time, >> and the "version A" code I discussed before, which to my mind >> is fairly readable. >> >> "Don't add slowness": 1 (normalised time) >> "Trygve's code": 6.5 >> "High level code": 30.6 (or 4.7 times slower than Trygve's) >> >> Here's the "High level code". >> ^(aString allSatisfy: [:each | each isSpace or: [each isDigit]]) and: >> [ >> |digitsReverse| >> digitsReverse := (aString select: [:each | each isDigit]) reverse. >> digitsReverse size > 1 and: [ >> |evens odds evenSum oddSum| >> odds := digitsReverse withIndexSelect: [:y :i | i odd]. >> evens := digitsReverse withIndexSelect: [:x :i | i even]. >> oddSum := odds detectSum: [:y | y digitValue]. >> evenSum := evens detectSum: [:x | >> #(0 2 4 6 8 1 3 5 7 9) at: x digitValue + 1]. >> (oddSum + evenSum) \\ 10 = 0]] >> >> This is the kind of code I was recommending that Roelof write. >> >> As a rough guide, by counting traversals (including ones inside existing >> methods), I'd expect the "high level" code to be at least 10 times slower >> than the "no added slowness" code. >> >> We are in vehement agreement that there is a time to write high level >> really obvious easily testable and debuggable code, and that's most >> of the time, especially with programming exercises. >> >> I hope that we are also in agreement that factors of 30 (or even 6) >> *can* be a serious problem. I mean, if I wanted something that slow, >> I'd use Ruby. >> >> I hope we are also agreed that (with the exception of investigations >> like this one) the time to hack on something to make it faster is AFTER >> you have profiled it and determined that you have a problem. >> >> But I respectfully suggest that there is a difference taking slowness OUT >> and simply not going out of your way to add slowness in the first place. >> >> I'd also like to remark that my preference for methods that traverse a >> sequence exactly once has more to do with Smalltalk protocols than >> with efficiency. If the only method I perform on an object is #do: >> the method will work just as well for readable streams as for >> collections. If the only method I perform on an object is #reverseDo: >> the method will work just as well for Read[Write]Streams as for >> SequenceReadableCollections, at least in my library. It's just like >> trying to write #mean so that it works for Durations as well as Numbers. >> >> Oh heck, I suppose I should point out that much of the overheads in >> this case could be eliminated by a Self-style compiler doing dynamic >> inlining + loop fusion. There's no reason *in principle*, given enough >> people, money, and time, that the differences couldn't be greatly >> reduced in Pharo. >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 21:50, Trygve Reenskaug <tryg...@ifi.uio.no> wrote: >> >> >> Richard, >> >> Thank you for looking at the code. It is comforting to learn that the >> code has been executed for a large number of examples without breaking. The >> code is not primarily written for execution but for being read and checked >> by the human end user. It would be nice if we could also check that it gave >> the right answers, but I don't know how to do that. >> >> The first question is: Can a human domain expert read the code and sign >> their name for its correctness? >> >> >> When this is achieved, a programming expert will transcribe the first >> code to a professional quality program. This time, the second code should >> be reviewed by an independent programmer who signs their name for its >> correct transcription from the first version. >> >> --Trygve >> >> PS: In his 1991 Turing Award Lecture, Tony Hoare said: "There are two >> ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple >> that there are obviously no deficiencies and the other is to make it so >> complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far >> more difficult." >> >> --Trygve >> >> On tirsdag.05.05.2020 04:41, Richard O'Keefe wrote: >> >> As a coding experiment, I adapted Trygve Reenskoug's code to my >> Smalltalk compiler, put in my code slightly tweaked, and benchmarked >> them on randomly generated data. >> >> Result: a factor of 6.3. >> >> In Squeak it was a factor of ten. >> >> I had not, in all honesty, expected it to to be so high. >> >> On Tue, 5 May 2020 at 02:00, Trygve Reenskaug <tryg...@ifi.uio.no> wrote: >> >> A coding experiment. >> Consider a Scrum development environment. Every programming team has an >> end user as a member. >> The team's task is to code a credit card validity check. >> A first goal is that the user representative shall read the code and >> agree that it is a correct rendering of their code checker: >> >> luhnTest: trialNumber >> | s1 odd s2 even charValue reverse | >> ----------------------------------------------- >> " Luhn test according to Rosetta" >> "Reverse the order of the digits in the number." >> reverse := trialNumber reversed. >> "Take the first, third, ... and every other odd digit in the reversed >> digits and sum them to form the partial sum s1" >> s1 := 0. >> odd := true. >> reverse do: >> [:char | >> odd >> ifTrue: [ >> s1 := s1 + char digitValue. >> ]. >> odd := odd not >> ]. >> "Taking the second, fourth ... and every other even digit in the reversed >> digits: >> Multiply each digit by two and sum the digits if the answer is greater >> than nine to form partial sums for the even digits" >> "The subtracting 9 gives the same answer. " >> "Sum the partial sums of the even digits to form s2" >> s2 := 0. >> even := false. >> reverse do: >> [:char | >> even >> ifTrue: [ >> charValue := char digitValue * 2. >> charValue > 9 ifTrue: [charValue := charValue - 9]. >> s2 := s2 + charValue >> ]. >> even := even not >> ]. >> "If s1 + s2 ends in zero then the original number is in the form of a >> valid credit card number as verified by the Luhn test." >> ^(s1 + s2) asString last = $0 >> --------------------------------- >> Once this step is completed, the next step will be to make the code right >> without altering the algorithm (refactoring). The result should be readable >> and follow the team's conventions. >> >> >> P.S. code attached. >> >> >> -- >> >> The essence of object orientation is that objects collaborate to achieve >> a goal. >> Trygve Reenskaug mailto: tryg...@ifi.uio.no >> Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver/ >> N-0378 Oslo http://fullOO.info >> Norway Tel: (+47) 468 58 625 >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> Stéphane Ducasse >> http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org >> 03 59 35 87 52 >> Assistant: Julie Jonas >> FAX 03 59 57 78 50 >> TEL 03 59 35 86 16 >> S. Ducasse - Inria >> 40, avenue Halley, >> Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza >> Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 >> France >> >> >> >> -------------------------------------------- >> Stéphane Ducasse >> http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr / http://www.pharo.org >> 03 59 35 87 52 >> Assistant: Julie Jonas >> FAX 03 59 57 78 50 >> TEL 03 59 35 86 16 >> S. Ducasse - Inria >> 40, avenue Halley, >> Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza >> Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650 >> France >> >>
