BTW, I've also said many unkind things about Python. And C++. And Scala and
Swift. But I'm being criticized for what I've said about JavaScript?
Really???
There is certainly no hint of bias here.
Michael J. Zeder wrote
> Hey Ben,
>
> I leave it with this answer, as you suggested, thank you for picking up
> the ball!
> First, I admit again, I have thought about it one whole day, if and how
> I should do this "intervention", which is absolutly not my usual style,
> but I decided for myself, to be intentionally blunt, provocative, and
> parade his virtual presence around here in front of all Pharo users...
> In the hope that this kicks off something and, of course, that it will
> not be the final word.
>
> I tried to avoid being seen as the hurt one (seems, that I did not
> quite succeed with this). Javascript is most popular, so R.K. Eng
> cannot damage this platform with his – let's say... – "opinions",
> but he can damage Smalltalk and its small community. So I started with
> making noise, not with the story from my client's managers, who
> dismissed Pharo, because of his highly ranked Google search results –
> last year (But in fact, I was annoyed two days ago, I was googling
> actually a very specific topic about compiler optimization in
> prototype-based OO, and R.K. Engs ill-informed superficial "lecturing"
> rants showed up again at third or fourth place, I think, sigh).
>
> Short answers to your questions:
>
> * Yep, one main concern is his connection between Smalltalk advocacy
> and discrediting other languages – or making dogmatic, condescending
> and un-empirical statements of strong typing over weak typing, or
> class-based over prototype-based OO etc. Just separate that clearly. JS
> has huge momentum (IMHO absolutly justified), and it would be advisable
> to say something like "Hey, you like JS? Then look at ST, it is similar
> but the 'original thing', more pure, and takes the basic concepts even
> further".
>
> * I have to correct myself concerning "wrong statements about ST": it
> is not so much, that he writes "wrong" things about Pharo, but it is
> more that R.K.Eng often uses old 1980ies marketing language (like "It
> is just objects all the way down!"). That was nice back then, a
> completely new way of thinking, but today, a whole bunch of languages
> has sprung up from this legacy (dynamic, OO, introspection etc.), among
> them JS, and have taken the concepts to new forms. His superficial
> knowledge combined with the over-confident and condescending attitude
> scares away interested people. The quote I mentioned ("just object all
> the way down") was one of the blog topics the managers, to whom I tried
> to advertise Pharo, found ridiculous and laughed at it ("does it work
> by magic then? What are the primitives and basic value types then?"
> etc).
>
> * Pushing ones own projects is fine, again. But all his publicity
> effort have a strong taste (maybe it is cultural), that he wants
> control public perception of the community (and thus steering it).
> Being "Mr. Smalltalk" is extremly presumptive, in German it would
> usually refer to an official spokesperson (I think actually, for native
> English speakers, too...). And if I remember correctly, he did not get
> a warm welcome, true, but before that, he showed up without any
> Smalltalk background and just proclaimed himself the new
> project/marketing manager, without ever asking, what the community
> actually needs and what the current state is.
>
> * The top search results in Google are a major concern for every FOSS
> project...
>
> * If a person constantly and loudly points out that he is "altruistic",
> and that his self-initiated work (unasked, and reasonably rejected in
> part) would be worth a lot of money, than this is the opposite of
> altruistic... Again, maybe a cultural thing.
>
> But yes, I like to see becoming this a success story.
> Thank you! M
>
>
>
> Am Fr, 1. Mär, 2019 um 6:15 NACHMITTAGS schrieb Ben Coman
> <
> btc@
> >:
>> Hi Michael,
>>
>> Thanks for your thoughtful followup.
>>
>> On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 at 19:59, Michael Zeder <
> post@
> >
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I have carefully thought about, if I should really go publicly
>>> against one person within the community, and to start this "tirade",
>>> including the possibility that this causes an escalation, of course
>>> you cannot/must not silence a person ("Streisand" effect, did not
>>> know the term, but very fitting). But I decided that this kind of
>>> public conflicts is what is needed (and will make the community look
>>> better, not worse), _if_ a certain point is reached.
>>
>> I certainly subscribe to the tenet "Community standards do not
>> maintain themselves: They're maintained by people actively applying
>> them, visibly, in public." [1]
>> And I understand the tension in deciding to do so, with the
>> accompanying risk of making things worse (been there myself)
>> For me what weakened your first post was the name calling and sense
>> you were coming from a position of hurt with a story you needed to
>> justify by "making him wrong". :)
>> Much better second time round.
>>
>> [1] http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#not_losing
>>
>>
>>> I stand by it, but have reconsidered some points:
>>> * I do (did) not call for _immediate_ exclusion, but an
>>> "admonishment" that if certain behaviour is not about to change
>>> fundamentally, the community will have to act (by publicly
>>> separating this individual out).
>>> * Take older articles down, which start flamewars against other
>>> languages, or more precise: separate them from Smalltalk advocacy!
>>> If he wants to flame JS (for its various birth defects), fine, but
>>> don't connect that with pro-Smalltalk articles, for example.
>>
>> That seems a reasonable position and a good way to frame it.
>>
>>
>>> * Community efforts shall follow follow some community consensus.
>>> Core developers are no dictators, of course, but they are the ones
>>> knowing, what the state of the project is, and where _their_ work
>>> will lead to. Constantly ignoring this common guidance is
>>> detrimental to the community. So either, learn Smalltalk core coding
>>> and challenge the leadership, or do accept that there is some common
>>> agenda (and there are lots of open tasks: writing tutorials,
>>> documentation, make old scientific research available, linking and
>>> connecting showcases).
>>
>> His earlier articles got hammered and its natural that created a
>> defensive position for him to disconnect from the community
>> leadership.
>> The trick as for everyone is to not carry those forever and try
>> starting anew.
>>
>>
>>> * Public opinion does matter. The fact I mentioned Google SEO was
>>> indeed the starting point for me, to get into or start this flame
>>> war. Here is my story:
>>> Two of my clients (medium-sized enterprises) are classical C++/C#
>>> Windows development companies. I advertised Pharo to them for an
>>> _internal_ tool (their commerical products won't change to Smalltalk
>>> of course, but for their own internal dev tasks, Pharo whould have
>>> been a nice fit). When the managers got back to me, they had googled
>>> it, and told me, this thing sounds very dubious ("unseriös"). I
>>> enquired, what they had read, and they told me, this "spokesperson"
>>> (sic!!!) sounds like a trolling script kid, and they can't employ
>>> something which is developed (sic!!!) by such people. After some
>>> explanation, I managed to convince them, that this person is just a
>>> lonely person, who showed up out of nowhere, is not involved in the
>>> actual work, and just produces himself on the internet. But too
>>> late, their impression on Smalltalk was already formed by R.K.Engs
>>> "blogs" (in the meantime, they rank on top in Google search result).
>>
>> You should have led with that !!!! An experience has a lot more
>> power than an opinion.
>>
>>
>>> When I did some research of my own yesterday, and saw again, that
>>> R.K. Engs dubious blog entries were listed on top, I decided to take
>>> action.
>>>
>>>
>>> I like to answer to your balanced and thoughtful responses:
>>>
>>>> You may disagree about *how* he does such work, the actual content,
>>>> for sure, but that's a feedback better directed to mr. Eng himself.
>>>
>>> R.K. Eng has made it clear in the past many many times in uncertain
>>> wording, that he is not willing to follow community advice in these
>>> matters, if his gut is telling him something different...
>>>
>>
>> Some of that community advice has been delivered fairly
>> confrontation-ally and not really conducive to having someone listen.
>>
>>>> Hopefully I've expressed a balanced enough position that this
>>>> doesn't draw too many responses.
>>>>
>>> yes, you did. thank you.
>>>
>>>
>>>>> I agree "Mr Smalltalk" is quite a presumptive title, but really
>>>>> anyone following the mail lists soon gets an idea of who are the
>>>>> community merit leaders.
>>>
>>> Well, I disagree, based on the experience, I have written down
>>> above. The internet is very much about who is in the center of the
>>> focus (SEO/social media). Anybody new to Smalltalk will at first
>>> glance identify our community with this "spokesperson" (as I have
>>> experienced with two people, last year already btw)
>>
>> Point taken.
>>
>>
>>> Maybe it is a language thing, but "Mr. Smalltalk" is _extremely_
>>> presumptive (in German, it means the embodiment of the denoted
>>> thing). If a person is not doing very very thorough reading of ages
>>> old mail list discussions or is researching, that this person in
>>> fact never committed any code to the repos, then any newcomer will
>>> think, this "Mr. Smalltalk" is at least a versed and informed
>>> Smalltalk developer (which, given his newbie questions he is
>>> absolutely not).
>>
>> Got it. So apart from fighting directly against his presumption to
>> the title (which seems difficult)
>> would cleaning some other-language-denigration from old articles go
>> some way towards mitigating your concern?
>>
>>>>> You are right he hasn't committed any code, but I've not actually
>>>>> seen him claim credit for any code in Pharo, so this point seems
>>>>> off.
>>> true. but as I just wrote, that is what people presume, given his
>>> way and manner of producing himself. If he wrote honestly wrote "I
>>> am a fanboy, supporter and advocate of Smalltalk...", great! But he
>>> claims he worked many many hours without a dime, but worth many
>>> dollars, and had "tremendous success" in creating a new Smalltalk
>>> wave.
>>
>> I'm pretty by many-hours-without-a dime he meant his evangelism.
>> If it didn't come across like that, that is probably specific
>> copy-edit feedback that would be useful to him.
>>
>>>>>> * ...is doing SEO to make Google show his own results before FOSS
>>>>>> community or sciences pages.
>>>>> I think its equally likely that most in our community are too busy
>>>>> coding to try getting articles ranked,
>>>>> so its more lack of effort by most of us. Most of his articles
>>>>> mention Pharo so people end up finding us anyway.
>>> might be true (some criticism to the community agenda..? different
>>> topic)
>>> The thing is, the wrong information are getting more and more in the
>>> focus of the internet, pushing aside the community-driven Pharo
>>> sites (or real scientific papers or well-done tutorials).
>>
>> I've read most of his articles. I don't think he gets much factually
>> wrong about Pharo (and has corrected those when pointed out).
>> It seems your main concern about wrong information is attacks on
>> other languages, which is fair.
>>
>>
>>>>> Any money he gets for his writing is not anything that concerns me
>>>>> personally. Those articles are his own effort.
>>>
>>> Sorry, misunderstanding! Of course, he may earn with his writing,
>>> whatever he gets for it.
>>> I was referring to the "up-coming" Smalltalk Coding Competition.
>>
>> btw, a few weeks ago when Richard asked for help to program the
>> competition, I volunteered.
>> I've criticized some of his articles, and maybe there are other
>> "better" the money could be spent,
>> but I admire he has stuck to his vision and think its a big thing he
>> has taken on.
>> If its going to happen anyway, for me its better to help make it a
>> success than a flop.
>> [Sidebar: I haven't managed to do much on it yet since I'm run ragged
>> on a personal development course until mid-April
>> that includes running a community project of my own...
>> https://www.nanpopcode.fun/]
>>
>>
>>> Now, yes, that money doesn't go into his own pockets (would be
>>> criminal fraud), but the thing is, he controls this money.
>>> Who will be the judges? Who will set parameters for the competition?
>>> Transparency?
>>> What is the benefit that goes back into the community? Now, it is
>>> fine, that he is pushing for things like that, but again, he is
>>> doing it without synchronising this effort with what is needed by
>>> the community.
>>
>> He got a reasonable number of supporters on GoFundMe (I wasn't one at
>> the time),
>> and I believe the majority of the money comes from a few companies
>> so I expect its really their opinion that counts about how their
>> money is spent.
>>
>>
>>>>>> * ...denies community leadership by merit (Pharo core developers
>>>>>> do know, what they have created and where they want to go in the
>>>>>> future,
>>>>> I don't see him claiming leadership of our community or trying to
>>>>> set our agenda.
>>>>> He just didn't let community criticism of his writing slow him
>>>>> down.
>>>>> All I observed is that several people bit him and he bit back -
>>>>> fairly usual sort of poor communication on both sides (including
>>>>> me).
>>>
>>> Well, as written above, the manner of his web appearance is
>>> implicitly a claim of community leadership. Not an exclusive one of
>>> course, but he wants to be perceived of one of the most important
>>> persons in the community (he told so many times, explicitly). And
>>> given my experience, read above, this had already a (negative)
>>> success with it.
>>> And I think he is setting agenda: "Make Smalltalk great/mainstream
>>> again" is the baseline, and that is something, only the core dev
>>> team and the community as a whole can decide/make happen (I love
>>> Smalltalk, but he promises wrong things, so if, just for example,
>>> C++/Qt devs or _modern_ JS devs have a first look at Smalltalk with
>>> the expectation they could already do the same thing as in their
>>> usual platforms, they will be disappointed --> synchronize a
>>> marketing agenda with what this great project currently is about,
>>> but he is not willing to cooperate with the core dev team)
>>
>> Fair enough. Since in a couple of months I'll be helping him out,
>> I'll have an opportunity to raise these concerns with him.
>>
>>>>> Him swearing about a group of Pharo people is good ammunition to
>>>>> bring to the mail list to support your point,
>>>>> but I also see he was rather provoked. Overall I feel this
>>>>> extract was better left in that small corner of the internet
>>>>> rather than fan flames here.
>>>
>>> :) Yeah... no! I think this is really a central point (so I put him
>>> in the pillory here with intent). There is something called
>>> community/FOSS ethics and structures.
>>> He does not show _respect_ towards those people, who did the work,
>>> but produces himself, and pushes for things, which the people who
>>> devoted their work to this project, told him that it is
>>> counter-productive. That is, in the long-run, a very dangerous
>>> situation.
>>
>> I agree, its not great. But he didn't get a warm welcome and some of
>> his early interactions were abrasive.
>> Considering two extremes, you can either be inclusive and hopefully
>> nurture/mold, or exclude and lose any chance at that.
>> Like a lot of things, the path is somewhere in the middle and needs a
>> bit of give and take on both sides.
>>
>>>>>> PS: a side note on Javascript (with lower S). wether you love or
>>>>>> hate this quirky lovechild of Lisp and Self/Smalltalk, telling JS
>>>>>> developers they are stupid and that they should abandon powerful
>>>>>> Vue.js, for example, in favor of Amber Smalltalk [cudos to Amber
>>>>>> devs! great thing!]) is utterly stupid!
>>>>> Agree. But banning everyone in the world for similar stupidity
>>>>> would leave the internet awfully quiet.
>>> Sure! Again: I am against silencing or banning anybody (and how
>>> could you). But if this becomes unbearable, there needs to be a
>>> public separation, so he does not drag the project down. People need
>>> to speak up against such usurpation.
>>
>> I appreciate the stand your are taking for the community.
>> I've gained from your share of your workplace experience.
>>
>>>>>> (which in the end are only a self-serving, ego-centric,
>>>>>> attention-greedy campaign to promote "Mr. Smalltalk" himself, a
>>>>>> total newbie, who claims credit for the work of others).
>>>>> Your repeated "claims credit for the work of others" is quite
>>>>> provocative and I haven't noticed this in his writings. Could you
>>>>> provide a link?
>>>
>>> See above, maybe it is a cultural thing, but as I told in my
>>> experience, all of his appearance screams for being recognized as
>>> one of the most important persons in the community (he is
>>> condescendingly mocking marketing efforts of the last 40 years,
>>> claims that he is the one who will "make smalltalk great again"...)
>>>
>>> Yes I am provocative this time, not my normal style (and I admit, I
>>> was tripped-out by his provocative blog title "Even people who
>>> understand prototypal programming do not like it – an inconvienent
>>> truth"; that is dripping off arrogance and ignorance... And sheds a
>>> bad light on Smalltalk, with which he wants to be identified in the
>>> web)
>>
>> Got it.
>> Let me ask to park this thread for the moment, because it can be
>> quite distracting if everyone chips in an opinion.
>> I think you've made some fair points and I'll put myself on the line
>> to discuss them with Richard when I start helping him with his
>> competition project.
>>
>> cheers -ben
--
Sent from: http://forum.world.st/Pharo-Smalltalk-Users-f1310670.html
