On Thu, Apr 4, 2024 at 12:45 PM Jelte Fennema-Nio <m...@jeltef.nl> wrote:
> Yeah, we definitely think differently here then. To me bumping the
> minor protocol version shouldn't be a thing that we would need to
> carefully consider. It should be easy to do, and probably done often.
Often?
I kind of hope that the protocol starts to evolve a bit more than it
has, but I don't want a continuous stream of changes. That will be
very hard to test and verify correctness, and a hassle for drivers to
keep up with, and a mess for compatibility.
> So, what approach of checking feature support are you envisioning
> instead? A function for every feature?
> Something like SupportsSetProtocolParameter, that returns an error
> message if it's not supported and NULL otherwise. And then add such a
> support function for every feature?
Yeah, something like that.
> I think I might agree with you that it would be nice for features that
> depend on a protocol extension parameter, indeed because in the future
> we might make them required and they don't have to update their logic
> then. But for features only depending on the protocol version I
> honestly don't see the point. A protocol version check is always going
> to continue working.
Sure, if we introduce it based on the protocol version then we don't
need anything else.
> I'm also not sure why you're saying a user is not entitled to this
> information. We already provide users of libpq a way to see the full
> Postgres version, and the major protocol version. I think allowing a
> user to access this information is only a good thing. But I agree that
> providing easy to use feature support functions is a better user
> experience in some cases.
I guess that's a fair point. But I'm worried that if we expose too
much of the internals, we won't be able to change things later.
> > But this is another example of a problem that can *easily* be fixed
> > without using up the entirety of the _pq_ namespace. You can introduce
> > _pq_.dont_error_on_unknown_gucs=1 or
> > _pq_.dont_error_on_these_gucs='foo, bar, baz'. The distinction between
> > the startup packet containing whizzbang=frob and instead containing
> > _pq_.whizzbang=frob shouldn't be just whether an error is thrown if we
> > don't know anything about whizzbang.
>
> Nice idea, but that sadly won't work well in practice. Because old PG
> versions don't know about _pq_.dont_error_on_unknown_gucs. So that
> would mean we'd have to wait another 5 years (and probably more) until
> we could set non-_pq_-prefixed GUCs safely in the startup message,
> using this approach.
Hmm. I guess that is a problem.
> Two side-notes:
> 1. I realized there is a second benefit to using _pq_ for all GUCs
> that change the protocol level that I didn't mention in my previous
> email: It allows clients to assume that _pq_ prefixed GUCs will change
> the wire-protocol and that they should not allow a user of the client
> to set them willy-nilly. I'll go into this benefit more in the rest of
> this email.
> 2. To clarify: I'm suggesting that a startup packet containing
> _pq_.whizzbang would actually set the _pq_.whizzbang GUC, and not the
> whizzbang GUC. i.e. the _pq_ prefix is not stripped-off when parsing
> the startup packet.
I really intended the _pq_ prefix as a way of taking something out of
the GUC namespace, not as a part of the GUC namespace that users would
see. And I'm reluctant to go back on that. If we want to make
pg_protocol.${NAME} mean a wire protocol parameter, well maybe there's
something to that idea [insert caveats here]. But doesn't _pq_ look
like something that was intended to be internal? That's certainly how
I intended it.
> > I want to be able to know the state of my protocol
> > parameters by calling libpq functions that answer my questions
> > definitively based on libpq's own internal state. libpq itself *must*
> > know what compression I'm using on my connection; the server's answer
> > may be different.
>
> I think that totally makes sense that libpq should be able to answer
> those questions without contacting the server, and indeed some
> introspection should be added for that. But being able to introspect
> what the server thinks the setting is seems quite useful too. That
> still doesn't solve the problem of poolers though. How about
> introducing a new ParameterGet message type too (matching the proposed
> ParameterSet), so that poolers can easily parse and intercept that
> message type.
Wouldn't libpq already know what value it last set? Or is this needed
because it doesn't know what the other side's default is?
> 2. By using PGC_PROTOCOL to indicate that those GUCs can only be
> changed using ParameterSet
Hmm, OK. I guess if the PGC_PROTOCOL flag makes it so that the GUC can
only be set using ParameterSet, and it also makes them
non-transactional, then it's fine. So to be clear, I can't set these
in postgresql.conf, or postgresql.auto.conf, or via ALTER $ANYTHING,
or via SET, or in any other way than by sending ParameterStatus
messages. And when I send a ParameterStatus message, it doesn't matter
if I'm in a good transaction, an aborted transaction, or no
transaction at all, and the setting change takes effect regardless of
that and regardless of any subsequent rollbacks. Is that right?
I feel like maybe it's not, because you seem to be thinking that you'd
also set these in the startup packet, at least...
--
Robert Haas
EDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
