Perhaps we could try to co-locate a future Operators mini-summit with FOSDEM or SCALE (February) and/or OSCON (July)? Events like those are conveniently scheduled between November and April and likely to already have OpenStack-related developers/deployers planning on attending. The logistics might not work for February, but we should start planning for the future.
Thanks, Matt Ray On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 9:57 PM, Matthew Ray <matthewh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Yes please, the sooner something can be planned the better. The gap > between development and operations is growing bigger every release. > > > On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 1:46 PM, Tim Bell <tim.b...@cern.ch> wrote: > >> >> How about we do a mid-summit user/operator boot camp (like the programs >> do, i.e. February or so) where: >> >> - we get some operators and users (i.e. those that run and those that >> consume) OpenStack together >> - we describe our pain points (as Tom would say >> curse/desk-slam/white-board) >> - we prepare a set of blueprints and corresponding representatives to >> explain them to the development community >> - we identify cross-project issues and take them to the TC >> >> My experience is that there is significant overlap between us all so it >> is not necessary to have everyone there, especially if we solicit input >> before through the ambassadors etc. >> >> Tim >> >> On 20 Dec 2013, at 07:55, Tristan Goode <tris...@aptira.com> wrote: >> >> > I guess the simplest meaning is "all those that are not committing code >> to >> > the OpenStack code base"? :D >> > >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Everett Toews [mailto:everett.to...@rackspace.com] >> >> Sent: Wednesday, 18 December 2013 1:54 AM >> >> To: Tristan Goode >> >> Cc: Tom Fifield; <openstack@lists.openstack.org> >> >> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at >> > the next >> >> summit >> >> >> >> Hi Tristan, >> >> >> >> Can you clarify what you meant by Users in your subject line? >> >> >> >> I took it to mean application developers (i.e. the developers writing >> > applications on >> >> top of OpenStack) and possibly application operators (i.e. the >> operators >> > deploying >> >> applications on top of OpenStack). They seem to have gotten lost in the >> > discussion >> >> here. >> >> >> >> Ultimately, OpenStack is being built for them. As I believe was your >> > original intent, >> >> they need a voice in such a forum too. I realize that even less >> > application developers >> >> are likely to attend the summit than operators. >> >> >> >> However we still need to encourage their involvement and make a place >> > for them. >> >> We also need to encourage operators to gather feedback from their >> > application >> >> developers about their experiences developer on top of OpenStack as I'm >> > sure the >> >> operations folk get an occasional ear full from them. ;) >> >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> Everett >> >> >> >> P.S. Just to be clear...because we have a lot of overlapping >> > terminology. >> >> >> >> application developers = the developers writing applications on top of >> > OpenStack >> >> application operators = the operators deploying applications on top of >> > OpenStack >> >> [OpenStack] developers = the developers writing OpenStack [OpenStack] >> > operators >> >> = the developers deploying OpenStack >> >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 17, 2013, at 3:24 AM, Tristan Goode wrote: >> >> >> >>> Perfect stated Tom. Thank you. >> >>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: Tom Fifield [mailto:t...@openstack.org] >> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, 17 December 2013 11:23 AM >> >>>> To: openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users at >> >>> the next >> >>>> summit >> >>>> >> >>>> On 17/12/13 02:55, Tim Bell wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Specifying something as a bug needs to determine things like 'what >> >>>>> component should this be addressed in' and describing the desired >> >>>>> behaviour. Many of the comments from the survey describe the pain >> >>>>> points, rather than the solutions. Upgrading is difficult, no >> >>>>> mechanism to auto restart VMs on other hypervisors, monitoring >> >>>>> frameworks, inconsistent options in command line tools and APIs, . >> >>>>> equally, missing functional gaps do not fall well into the bug >> > system. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I have received the feedback from operators when raising issues that >> >>>>> they get the response 'contributions are welcome'. Running an >> >>>>> openstack cloud can be non-trivial, especially the big ones, and >> >>>>> there is a need to appreciate that this effort is a significant part >> >>>>> of the OpenStack community effort (along with the blogs, the >> >>>>> documentation updates, the summit presentations). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I personally have a different proposal to Tristan (although I like >> >>>>> his). my proposal is that each program should have a session >> >>>>> dedicated to user/operator needs at the start. Between the UC, the >> >>>>> volunteers to look at the survey comments and the user group >> >>>>> ambassadors, we should be able to put together a set of pain points >> >>>>> to be considered for the next release. solutions are up to the >> > design teams. >> >>>> >> >>>> While I think that having such a session in each program fits well >> >>>> with >> >>> "our" (being >> >>>> "the developers'") mentality and/or schedule, I feel that it does not >> >>> suit with that of >> >>>> operators. >> >>>> >> >>>> This is because, as an operator, you typically don't just have >> >>>> problems >> >>> or feedback >> >>>> with one project. >> >>>> >> >>>> Looking through the survey comments, it's likely that if those kind >> >>>> of >> >>> operators were >> >>>> attending summits, they'd have to attend a high fraction of every >> >>>> such >> >>> session. >> >>>> >> >>>> In addition, points of pain can often be about the integration >> >>>> between >> >>> services, the >> >>>> consistency between them, or whole-of-project issues. Like the fact >> >>>> our >> >>> python >> >>>> clients all have different import lines, or the way DNS works between >> >>> Nova and >> >>>> Neutron, and so on. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> The conversation of late has been leaning towards a happy scenario >> >>>> where "operators" and "developers" come together in a session and the >> >>>> former >> >>> presents >> >>>> their concerns to the latter, who promptly go away and Fix All The >> >>> Things. >> >>>> >> >>>> To be frank, having been on the "operator" side of the fence, and >> >>> participating in all >> >>>> of the frequent cursing, desk-slamming, whiteboard-workarounding, >> >>> nagios-alert- >> >>>> spam-receiving it takes to run an OpenStack cloud ... I'm not sure we >> >>> can let >> >>>> "operators" loose in such a session without some kind of filter - it >> >>> might put >> >>>> "developers" off helping if we descent into full sysadmin rant :) But >> >>>> we >> >>> do need to >> >>>> get that feedback through somehow. >> >>>> >> >>>> I have full appreciation for the session that the swift team ran with >> >>> the LINE guys at >> >>>> Hong Kong - that was seriously awesome to hear about and we should be >> >>> doing >> >>>> more of it. Though, I believe some of the value came from the fact >> >>>> that >> >>> it was an >> >>>> individual user stepping through their entire requirements. >> >>>> Challenging >> >>> the >> >>>> assumptions. Quite different from a torrent of people in a room :) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> The survey comments we've got are good, as is the plan Tim has put >> >>> together to >> >>>> wrangle them into a format where they perhaps can be taken to >> >>>> developers >> >>> as bugs, >> >>>> or blueprints - as Joe suggested. However, due to the nature of the >> >>> survey, they are >> >>>> most often brief, and surface-level. >> >>>> >> >>>> I believe what "getting Operators in a room" can achieve for us is >> >>> providing that >> >>>> same kind of feedback, but with far greater depth than can be >> >>>> achieved >> >>> by a 200 >> >>>> pixel survey box. >> >>>> >> >>>> A scenario I'd propose is to arrange something where we: >> >>>> 1. allow the full-descent into sysadmin rant, where people feel >> >>> comfortable to air >> >>>> each and every grievance they've had with any part of OpenStack, >> >>> recording all of >> >>>> this (in a manipulable, written format minus >> >>>> cursing) >> >>>> 2. refuel our sysadmins with [beverage], while a small team attempts >> >>>> to >> >>> wrangle the >> >>>> mass of comment into something that can be discussed 3. bring back in >> >>> the fearless >> >>>> operators, then have a more structured discussion about which items >> >>>> are >> >>> really the >> >>>> big ones - and dive deeper into those so a full understanding is had >> >>>> of >> >>> use- >> >>>> cases/'whys'/'whats' >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> at the conclusion of this session, we clean it up a bit and can pass >> >>>> it >> >>> on to our super- >> >>>> awesome "developers", who probably haven't had time to make it to >> >>>> this >> >>> multi-hour >> >>>> session, but will subsequently bow in awe of all of the awesome >> >>> suggestions and >> >>>> people who love their work :) >> >>>> >> >>>> For thoroughness, this passing-to could happen at session-per-program >> >>>> as suggested, or in some other asynchronous way. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Regards, >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Tom >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Tim >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> *From:*Joe Gordon [mailto:joe.gord...@gmail.com] >> >>>>> *Sent:* 16 December 2013 18:38 >> >>>>> *To:* Tristan Goode >> >>>>> *Cc:* openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Openstack] Bringing focus to the Operators and Users >> >>>>> at the next summit >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sun, Dec 15, 2013 at 10:36 PM, Tristan Goode <tris...@aptira.com >> >>>>> <mailto:tris...@aptira.com>> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I'm trying to establish a feedback loop "because" we (Operators, >> >>>>> Users, etc) >> >>>>> need to better present our actual real world, evidence based >> >>>>> Operator, User, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> and even other input like Sales and Marketing experiences back >> >>>>> into the >> >>>>> >> >>>>> development teams. Much of this does and will come from the great >> >>>>> work of >> >>>>> the UC, the User surveys, and especially the folks that have >> >>>>> volunteered to >> >>>>> analyse the survey results. I'm hoping to build on the survey >> >>>>> analysis and >> >>>>> collaboratively and constructively focus that to present a >> >>> blueprint or >> >>>>> roadmap with a "whole of OpenStack" scope. We can dig deeper into >> >>>>> the user >> >>>>> survey feedback and break beyond the bounds of the limited format >> >>> of the >> >>>>> user survey to seed the discussion. For me, the most valuable >> >>> session in >> >>>>> Hong Kong was the discussion led by Tim of the user survey. It >> > was >> >>>>> however, >> >>>>> all too short. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Do you have any examples of what kind of feedback you would like to >> >>>>> pass on to developers (I was unable to attend Tim's discussion of >> >>>>> the user survey)? Also just playing devils advocate here, but why >> >>>>> not use our bug system to provide feedback? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: Sean Dague [mailto:s...@dague.net <mailto:s...@dague.net>] >> >>>>>> Sent: Saturday, 14 December 2013 3:02 AM >> >>>>>> To: openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Openstack] Bringing focus to the Operators and >> >>> Users >> >>>>> at the >> >>>>>> next >> >>>>>> summit >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So not that I don't think this is a worth while thing, because I >> >>>>> think it >> >>>>>> is. But instead >> >>>>>> of jumping to the solution of a User Day, it might be useful to >> >>>>> figure out >> >>>>>> what's >> >>>>>> attempting to be solved. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Is it? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 1) get Users together to share best practices among themselves? >> >>>>> Because >> >>>>>> lots of >> >>>>>> people have learned things, and want to bootstrap others. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 2) get Users and Operators together to share best practices >> >>> among >> >>>>>> themselves? >> >>>>>> Because ... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 3) get Vendors and Users and Operators together? Because ... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> 4) get Developers and Users and Operators together? Because .... >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> I think if you start with defining the Because ... part, then >> >>> the >> >>>>> needed >> >>>>>> parties, then >> >>>>>> the odds of this being successful and useful to folks goes way >> >>> up. >> >>>>> It also >> >>>>>> would give >> >>>>>> people attending a reasonable expectation of what they are going >> >>>>> to get >> >>>>>> out of it. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Because it would be a shame to set up #1, if most people thought >> >>>>> they were >> >>>>>> getting >> >>>>>> #4 (which is basically what Lorin was proposing with his adopt a >> >>>>> developer >> >>>>>> idea), >> >>>>>> then people being disappointed that they didn't get what they >> >>>>> thought they >> >>>>>> were >> >>>>>> getting. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> The design summit works pretty well for the development >> >>> community >> >>>>> because >> >>>>>> of >> >>>>>> how narrowly it is scoped. So a critical mass in each of those >> >>>>> rooms knows >> >>>>>> when it's >> >>>>>> getting off track and how to pull it back to something >> >>> actionable >> >>>>> at the >> >>>>>> end. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -Sean >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On 12/13/2013 06:05 AM, Tristan Goode wrote: >> >>>>>>> I guess what I'm trying to say by "Users and Operators" covers >> >>>>>>> carriers and telcos. By User I mean folks that consume >> >>> OpenStack >> >>>>>>> resources and by Operator I mean folks that supply OpenStack >> >>>>>>> resources. Maybe all can be called Users but whatever one >> >>> calls it, >> >>>>>>> what I mean basically is Non-Developers actually working on >> >>> and with >> >>>>>>> OpenStack. :) >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Cheers >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Tristan >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> *From:*Kyle MacDonald [mailto:kyle.macdon...@gmail.com >> >>>>> <mailto:kyle.macdon...@gmail.com> >> >>>>>>> <mailto:kyle.macdon...@gmail.com >> >>>> <mailto:kyle.macdon...@gmail.com>>] >> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, 12 December 2013 7:02 PM >> >>>>>>> *To:* Tristan Goode >> >>>>>>> *Cc:* openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org> >> >>>>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org>> >> >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [Openstack] Bringing focus to the Operators and >> >>> Users >> >>>>>>> at the next summit >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Tristan >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I like this idea and agree it should be a priority. I do >> >>> suggest the >> >>>>>>> focus area be expanded (or a second focus day) to accommodate >> >>>>> carriers >> >>>>>>> and telcos and their operations needs (they are real >> >>> operators). >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> There is a ton of work being done by the leading telco's >> >>> around NFV >> >>>>>>> and SDN (many in emerging use cases) using OpenStack. I can >> >>> very >> >>>>>>> easily see "operations" being a killer issue and something >> >>> that >> >>>>> should >> >>>>>>> be more broadly addressed. Last summit the forum for that >> >>> track of >> >>>>>>> discussions was by a vendor - next summit this area should be >> >>> made >> >>>>>>> more neutral and inclusive. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Kyle >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Dec 11, 2013, at 10:55 PM, Tristan Goode >> >>> <tris...@aptira.com >> >>>>> <mailto:tris...@aptira.com> >> >>>>>>> <mailto:tris...@aptira.com <mailto:tris...@aptira.com>>> >> >>> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> G'day OpenStackLand, >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I have an idea for the next summit to put forward... >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Like we have the various project design summit session >> >>> days >> >>>>> at the >> >>>>>>> summits, I think it'd be really useful to have an >> >>> Operators and >> >>>>>>> Users day at the very start of the next summit (and >> >>>>> hopefully all of >> >>>>>>> them in future if it works out). So far at the last 4 >> >>>>> summits I've >> >>>>>>> attended, from the users and operators point of view we've >> >>>>> had a rag >> >>>>>>> tag bunch of disconnected panels and 40 minute sessions >> >>> that >> >>>>> really >> >>>>>>> don't get anywhere much and don't make it to any sort of >> >>> plan or >> >>>>>>> worthwhile result. This proposed "Operators and Users" day >> >>>>> will be >> >>>>>>> run like the design summit session days where all of us >> >>> that >> >>>>> have to >> >>>>>>> deal with the consequences of the software development of >> >>> this >> >>>>>>> project sit in a room and work the issues. The goal is to >> >>>>> present >> >>>>>>> real world, evidence based Operator, User, and even other >> >>>>> input like >> >>>>>>> Sales and Marketing experiences back into the development >> >>> teams. >> >>>>>>> Maybe we might even have our own "Operators and Users" >> >>>>> lounge too. >> >>>>>>> :-P >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Cheers >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Tristan >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> Mailing list: >> >>>>>>> >> >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>>>> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org> >> >>>>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org>> >> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe : >> >>>>>>> >> >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> Mailing list: >> >>>>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>>>> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org> >> >>>>>>> Unsubscribe : >> >>>>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -- >> >>>>>> Sean Dague >> >>>>>> http://dague.net >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Mailing list: >> >>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> <mailto:openstack@lists.openstack.org> >> >>>>> Unsubscribe : >> >>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> Mailing list: >> >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>>> Unsubscribe : >> >>>>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> Mailing list: >> >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>>> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>>> Unsubscribe : >> >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>> >> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >>> Mailing list: >> > http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >>> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> >>> Unsubscribe : >> >>> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Mailing list: >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> > Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> > Unsubscribe : >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Mailing list: >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> Post to : openstack@lists.openstack.org >> Unsubscribe : >> http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack >> > >
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