> > The split caret is usually rendered in one color for the strong direction > and another for the weak. >
Phil, can you give examples of applications that use a split caret? Is it more prominent on Mac? I've asked another 5 people who use RTL writing and no one has ever seen it, including on Linux. On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 1:25 AM Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> wrote: > Quick and dirty prototype of the pennant-like direction indicator > suggested by Phil (thank you!) > > https://github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/jfx/pull/5 > > > > > > You can try this using the MonkeyTester TextArea page because it has > Window -> RTL menu option for switching the orientation. > > https://github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/MonkeyTest > > > > What do you think? > > > > Thank you > > -andy > > > > > > > > *From: *Philip Race <philip.r...@oracle.com> > *Date: *Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 12:25 > *To: *Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com>, Nir Lisker < > nlis...@gmail.com> > *Cc: *openjfx-dev@openjdk.org <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> > *Subject: *Re: [External] : Re: Question: bidi navigation > > The split caret is usually rendered in one color for the strong direction > and another for the weak. > Color is just one way of distinguishing. Other renderings are possible - > oh I see the ATSUI > docs use a high half caret and a low half caret. That's a new one but as I > said .. > I agree a user needs to know the current direction to know everything that > will happen but it > at least tells them "here, or there" as opposed to "here, or somewhere > else". > So the combination as Andy indicates might help. > I think the rendering should be a "pennant" rather than rectangular "flag" > so that it looks a bit like an arrow .. > That's what Swing's rendering looks like. > > -phil. > > On 10/19/23 11:39 AM, Andy Goryachev wrote: > > Maybe, just maybe, we should implement the dual carets with directionality > indicators (highlighted here for illustration purposes only, the actual > indicator might look like a flag or a “ г ”): > > > > > > What do you think? > > > > -andy > > > > *From: *Nir Lisker <nlis...@gmail.com> <nlis...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Thursday, October 19, 2023 at 00:28 > *To: *Philip Race <philip.r...@oracle.com> <philip.r...@oracle.com> > *Cc: *Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > <andy.goryac...@oracle.com>, openjfx-dev@openjdk.org > <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> > *Subject: *Re: [External] : Re: Question: bidi navigation > > Thanks Andy, the new link works. I read pages 33-36. Page 35 details the > two approaches: the dual caret you have described (which I had never seen > before in my life), and the single "jumping" caret, which is what I advised > to do. The document doesn't show, however, a direction indicator for the > caret based on the selected language, and I think that that's something > that should be shown. > > > > Phil, I'm not sure how the split caret can tell a user on its own where > the text will appear. The user will have to look at which language is > currently selected to know which of the carets is the real indicator. That > is, unless I misunderstand how the split caret works. > > The "why did it appear over there?" question is common in UI's that don't > handle the caret indication properly, for example when there is no visual > difference between the RTL and LTR carets (the direction indicator). A > jumping caret with a visual direction indicator solves 100% of the > ambiguity and the surprise factor without needing to look outside of the > text control to check which language is selected. > > > > - Nir > > > > On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 10:31 PM Philip Race <philip.r...@oracle.com> > wrote: > > So it seems Swing never calls Java2D's TextLayout.getCaretShapes() API > which is what would provide the split carets. > > Swing's caret is an instance of javax.swing.text.DefaultCaret which has > support for rendering a "flag" that indicates > the direction of the caret bias. > > Split caret is however useful to tell a user where the text of the other > direction would appear. > Otherwise even to someone familiar with editing bi-di text I except some > cases of "oh, why did what I typed appear way over there"? > They might still wonder, but at least they'd know where it was going to be > rendered ahead of time. > > -phil > > On 10/18/23 10:47 AM, Andy Goryachev wrote: > > Thank you, Nir. > > > > Try this link: > > > https://web.archive.org/web/20120802192035/http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/ATSUI_Concepts/atsui.pdf > <https://web.archive.org/web/20120802192035/http:/developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/ATSUI_Concepts/atsui.pdf> > > > > Curiously, the dual (split) caret capability *is* present in java2d, but > apparently it is not used in Swing as far as I can tell: > > > https://docs.oracle.com/javase/tutorial/2d/text/textlayoutbidirectionaltext.html#moving_carets > > > > -andy > > > > *From: *Nir Lisker <nlis...@gmail.com> <nlis...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Wednesday, October 18, 2023 at 09:15 > *To: *Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > *Cc: *openjfx-dev@openjdk.org <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> > <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> > *Subject: *Re: [External] : Re: Question: bidi navigation > > I've never seen this dual caret system. The link you gave leads to a 404 > error. > > > > I can't comment as to the plan without knowing what Prism was designed to > do, but it's rather unusual. The logical navigation choice seems correct > regardless. > > > > On Tue, Oct 17, 2023 at 7:13 PM Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > wrote: > > Dear Nir: > > > > Thank you so much for the information. I spoke to several people none of > whom, unfortunately, use an environment configured for RTL mode (but who > have keyboard settings for RTL languages). Based on the very small sample, > it appears that logical navigation is a way to go - which means the FX > behavior (or rather lack thereof due to > https://bugs.openjdk.org/browse/JDK-8296266) needs to change relative to > jfx8. > > > > Regarding the direction indicator - FX implements a dual caret the logic > of which I am still trying to decipher: > > > > > > > > > > (*sliptCaret* in PrismTextLayout:354) > > > > The closest description I was able to find is in Apple ATSUI Programming > guide > > > http://developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/ATSUI_Concepts/atsui.pdf > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/developer.apple.com/legacy/mac/library/documentation/Carbon/Conceptual/ATSUI_Concepts/atsui.pdf__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!LM7co48XfI4StmMZQ9TBX3emuN_Y_WM2CEdQi3PZQQ7LfjCCzhZRd1m4jTSc2n4tv6lQD49_YAhItF5cU8ZH$> > > on page 35, though I am not sure FX works as described in that document. > > > > The expectation is that the primary (high) caret is where the character > having the same directionality as the “primary line direction” is > inserted. It is possible that the text layout determines the primary line > direction based on the text as opposed to taking a hint from > NodeOrientation. > > > > Since this behavior is baked into FX prism text layout, I think it’s > unlikely to change. > > > > To summarize, I think we should switch FX TextInputControl hierarchy to > logical navigation. What do you think? > > > > -andy > > > > > > > > *From: *Nir Lisker <nlis...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Tuesday, October 17, 2023 at 03:44 > *To: *Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > *Cc: *openjfx-dev@openjdk.org <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> > *Subject: *Re: [External] : Re: Question: bidi navigation > > I have just tested on Win10: Notepad, Wordpad, MSWord 2021, Discord > desktop, WhatsApp desktop, Opera, Eclipse, Gimp 2, Audacity 2.1.3, and MS > VisualStudio 2022 all use logical. Edge uses logical in text areas and text > fields, but visual in the address bar (seems like a bug, but you can't have > spaces in web addresses anyway). I don't remember ever using a visual > navigation application, maybe it was very long ago. If there ever was a > decision there, it was made long ago, at least on Windows. > > > > It's very important to show the cursor direction because it resolves > ambiguities. It's available in most applications. > > > > My Windows UI is in standard English LTR. I just have an RTL language > installed. > > > > Logical navigation is a bit easier to work with I think. The behavior at > the edge of a word that changes the direction can be surprising (see the > ambiguities above), but that can be helped with the cursor direction > indication. If we can do a custom implementation, I would go a step further > and actually resolve the position ambiguities by positioning the cursor in > accordance with the selected insertion method (RTL or LTR). This means that > the cursor will jump when switching the language, but it will make life > easier because you will easily know in which direction you're about to type. > > > > On Mon, Oct 16, 2023 at 6:16 PM Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > wrote: > > Nir, thank you for responding! > > > > The behavior you describe (“logical” navigation) is what can be seen in > many, but not all applications, and that is what puzzles me. What’s more > interesting, the applications that use a “visual” kind of navigation, that > is the RIGHT ARROW key always moving the cursor right regardless of the > text, is used by javafx8 (it’s totally broken in jfx17, but it looks from > the code that it is supposed to be the same as in javafx8), java swing, MS > Word 2007 on Windows 10, macOS Notes app, macOS TextEdit, and Mozilla > Thunderbird. Also, this is the kind of navigation that some users prefer > (based on a very, very limited sample I was able to contact). > > > > What puzzles me is that there is no apparent standard even among the > modern applications (bundled macOS apps), although the transition from > visual to logical navigation in MS Word might indicate that the logical > navigation is winning. > > > > The appearance of caret is another aspect that seem to have no standard. > In many apps the caret does not change at all, very rarely we see a flag > indicating direction (java swing), and only javafx8 and some obsolete mac > Carbon reference doc shows a split caret. > > > > More questions for you: > > 1. it looks like you are on Windows, and are you using (or have you > seen) a fully localized version of Windows with all the UI set to RTL mode? > 2. Have you seen any native applications that use the visual > navigation model? > > > > Getting back to the problem at hand: if we were to retain the backward > compatibility in FX, we would need to fix the “visual” navigation. FX uses > the split caret which some users find confusing but we probably are stuck > with it. If we were to assume that the “logical” navigation is a standard > everyone is slowly converging to, then my fix for > https://bugs.openjdk.org/browse/JDK-8296266 is the right one and we > should declare a change in behavior. > > > > What do you think? > > > > P.S. I wonder if the logical navigation was chosen because of ease of > implementation, or is there a deeper reason? > > > > > > > > > > *From: *Nir Lisker <nlis...@gmail.com> > *Date: *Monday, October 16, 2023 at 04:52 > *To: *Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > *Cc: *openjfx-dev@openjdk.org <openjfx-dev@openjdk.org> > *Subject: *[External] : Re: Question: bidi navigation > > This is a tricky one. All applications I have seen, and I think that's > what people expect, is that the cursor changes direction during traversal. > > > > A key point is where the paragraph is aligned to (in Windows adjusted with > left CTRL+SHIFT and right CTRL+SHIFT). This sets the forward and backward > direction: if the paragraph is left-aligned, pressing the right arrow moves > the cursor forward, and for a right aligned, the right arrow moves the > cursor backward. Then the actual movement of the cursor is relative to the > paragraph alignment: in RTL alignment, traversing RTL text moves the > cursor forward, while traversing LTR moves the cursor backward. > > > > Examples > > In a left-aligned paragraph, pressing the right arrow will move the cursor > (|) like this: > > |ab אבג cd > > a|b אבג cd > > ab| אבג cd > > ab |אבג cd OR ab אבג| cd (there is ambiguity because the space > character can be both RTL or LTR) > > ab א|בג cd > > ab אב|ג cd > > ab אבג| cd OR ab |אבג cd > > ab אבג |cd > > ab אבג c|d > > ab אבג cd| > > > > To help with navigation, the cursor has a line attached to its top showing > which direction it's facing. > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > On Thu, Oct 12, 2023 at 3:42 AM Andy Goryachev <andy.goryac...@oracle.com> > wrote: > > Hi. > > > > I have a question for people who routinely use right-to-left RTL languages > (Arabic, Hebrew, etc.): > > > > *What is your expectation for navigating text using left/right arrow keys > when the text contains a mixture of RTL and LTR?* > > > > It looks like there is no standard when it comes to modern applications – > see a small sample: > > > https://gist.github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/4802f9380fb03ec2be7ac36bd98a2059 > <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/gist.github.com/andy-goryachev-oracle/4802f9380fb03ec2be7ac36bd98a2059__;!!ACWV5N9M2RV99hQ!P_TgGd02CrA1gNF2bW5yHBRJHFkdDqluPJmHDwIcAQ-DR_NWNd-JMkTn0x9d1m5azgCucompGMSgi7PqR7TS$> > > > > In javafx, the navigation of bidirectional (bidi) text might have been > broken sometime after jfx8, and even jfx8 might have issues, see > > https://bugs.openjdk.org/browse/JDK-8296266 > > > > It looks like the most modern applications use logical navigation and > logical selection (that is, when navigating using left/right arrow keys, > the cursor position reflects previous/next insertion indexes in the text, > rather than visual position). This causes the cursor to change the > direction of movement when it crosses the bidi boundary. Would you say > this is the expected behavior? > > > > Thank you > > -andy > > > > >
