> Am 14.02.2025 um 13:26 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.ha...@xs4all.nl>:
>
> On 2/14/2025 12:29 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>> Am 14.02.2025 um 11:58 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.ha...@xs4all.nl>:
>>>
>>> On 2/14/2025 11:36 AM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>> Am 13.02.2025 um 17:37 schrieb Hans Hagen <j.ha...@xs4all.nl>:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2/13/2025 3:28 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 12.02.2025 um 16:13 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context
>>>>>>> <ntg-context@ntg.nl>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2/12/2025 3:48 PM, Steffen Wolfrum wrote:
>>>>>>>> «Tagged PDF» still is broken:
>>>>>>>> \setupbackend[
>>>>>>>> format={pdf/a-1b:2005},
>>>>>>>> profile={default_cmyk.icc,default_rgb.icc,default_gray.icc},
>>>>>>>> intent=Coated FOGRA39 (ISO 12647-2:2004),
>>>>>>>> level=0]
>>>>>>>> \setupstructure[state=start,method=auto]
>>>>>>>> \setupbackend[export=yes]
>>>>>>>> \starttext
>>>>>>>> TEST
>>>>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> define broken ... you're not enabling tagging and enabling export will
>>>>>>> disable some other features so you get a different pdf anyway
>>>>>> When I run this test files with e.g. ConTeXt ver: 2022.07.06 21:42 LMTX
>>>>>> then opening the PDF in Acrobat Reader it says: Document Properties >
>>>>>> Tagged PDF : »Yes«.
>>>>>> When I use the current ConText its says »No«.
>>>>>> And the publishing houses demand Tagged PDF (because of accessibility).
>>>>>
>>>>> whatever that means ... for printing it doesn't matter ... for viewinfb
>>>>> they have to provide the tools and i bet they don't give you a full
>>>>> acrobat prescription
>>>> (of course not)
>>>>> anyway, you don't read what we answer ... you need to enable tagging and
>>>>> not confuse it with exporting .. think something
>>>>>
>>>>> \setuptagging
>>>>> [state=start]
>>>>>
>>>>> \setupbackend
>>>>> [format=ua2]
>>>>>
>>>>> \starttext
>>>>> TEST
>>>>> \stoptext
>>>>>
>>>>> instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hans
>>>> Does that mean that this example should provide the urgently desired
>>>> alt-text:
>>>> \setuptagging
>>>> [state=start]
>>>> \setupbackend
>>>> [format=ua2]
>>>> \setupexternalfigures[location=default]
>>>> \starttext
>>>> \startPDFalternativetext{this is a cow}
>>>> \externalfigure[cow]
>>>> \stopPDFalternativetext
>>>> \stoptext
>>>> Really?! If so, I will send it to the publishers so they can check if it
>>>> fulfills their needs.
>>>
>>> I assume you can try and did so because you indicated that your viewer gave
>>> some report.
>> Acrobat Reader can be downloaded for free. In the Document Properties it
>> reports only whether the PDF is a «Tagged PDF» or not. The tags themselves
>> can only be seen by Acrobat Pro. (Due to the costs probably only publishing
>> house work with Acrobat Pro.)
>
> I rarely open Acrobat Reader ... if onlty because I then need time to recover
> from an acute allergy for intrusive user interface changes and / or its offer
> to come up with summaries etc usign some ai and i don't even know of the file
> isn't sent somewhere.
>
>>> Of course you need to make sure not to introduce unwanted spaces (as in
>>> your example).
>> I didn't want to introduce unwanted spaces. Where are spaces in my example?
>
> after } and then after ]
>
>>> We can actually put an Alt on a specific image element (by setting
>>> label={...}) but for now it's disabled for now. Last time we checked some
>>> validators didn't like it and viewerd didn't do anything useful with it so
>>> ity made no sense to waste more time on it.
>>>
>>> Just putting stuff in a pdf for the sake of having something is is tricky
>>> because who knows what future validation makes of it. It's a mess (and
>>> always has been and likely will be).
>> Strange. I don't know the situation in The Netherlands, but at least in
>> Germany all publisher are obligated by law from 28th of June 2025 on to
>> provide books as PDF with tags and these alternative texts.
>
> Do they really have to provide books as pdf? I only buy printed books so I
> might be out of touch with reality (i.e. getting pdf's). Also, define
> publisher ...
>
> I never had a publisher ask for something tagged. If they would come up with
> these demands I'd ask them to put their money where their mouth is (pay for
> development, extra work involved, tools needed).
>
>> How do we manage this?
>
> If 'we' means 'me' (Hans) ... well, some of these rules only apply to
> organizations that have a turnaround over 7 digits so I'm way of from
> worrying. Mikael and I looked into tagging for educational materials and
> stopped where it still made some sense (read: university tools are happy),
> and will pick up in a few years when there might be some usefull tools. Also
> we found out that with LLM based chatbots can interpret an untagged pdf quite
> well so we'll see.
>
> That said: we have tagging in mkiv ... no one really cared that much (no
> tools that use them) ... and in mkxl we updated it a bit (still no tools)
> only to find out that tagged pdf (and the standard) has become fluid, seems
> to evolve, is kind of unstable, is a mess ... does a conforming 2 year old
> doc still validate? ... one cannot expect us to keep adapting for the sake of
> adapting, right? As it's all volunteer work, there are more instresting
> typesetting related things to explore.
Hi Hans,
in my case the publisher that needs this feature right now is Heidelberg
University Publishing:
https://heiup.uni-heidelberg.de/
Definitely no turnaround over 7 digits. A small but committed publisher, that
is engaged in making PDF documents also accessible for blind people.
Yours, Steffen
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