Thanks guys, I think the point has been made and I appreciate your last comments. I think I reacted a bit aggressively at some points and sounded trollish now that I read back so your responses might have not been entirely without basis so I apologize as well. My faith in humanity is restored.
Have a nice afternoon. 2013/5/28 Michael Schoonmaker <[email protected]>: > I apologize for adding to the "drama", but after reading your comments I > still legitimately believed that what you were arguing towards was muddying > the water between single namespace npm and dual namespace GitHub (whether > through the discovery and search system or the storage is less consequential > to me). I think a non-npm tool like http://eirikb.github.io/nipster/ would > be the most appropriate location, and there's a lot of precedent for these > sorts of tools. > > -Schoon > > P.S. In my case, what produced my answer wasn't the idea, but the > expectations of the existing community and the core team. I'm sure I was > just reading into things, but I want it to be clearer that I don't think > people should keep from sharing these kinds of ideas, albeit with a > different set of expectations. > > > On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:11 AM, Marco Rogers <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> At the risk of making things worse, I don't think this is that bad George. >> I think the responses you've gotten here have been pretty much in line with >> what you asked. You got a little negativity, but not a lot. And it was good >> for you to expand on your ideas because your initial message didn't really >> convey the right things. This conversation was helpful for me, and I'm sure >> a few other people, in thinking about what we could do to move the ecosystem >> forward. Lots of people are aware that discoverability sucks and that git >> integration is becoming pretty important for lots of people. >> >> I wish Isaac wouldn't be so quick to drop hammers on people's discussions >> by holding forth on what node/npm is or isn't going to do. (I've talked to >> him about it, but he's pretty stubborn). I can also see a world where >> npmjs.org supported searching a more expanded set of modules. It wouldn't be >> that difficult to visually differentiate between modules in the registry and >> those located somewhere else. And I actually think it might have some >> positive impact in that people would be more aware that they don't have to >> depend on what's in the npm registry. It's just one source of modules for >> the node ecosystem and there can be others. This is kind of orthogonal to >> the naming argument though. I tend to agree with Isaac there. You should >> name your modules uniquely. And if that's the only thing that's keeping you >> from publishing to the registry, that's a red herring. >> >> Unfortunately, Isaac has different ideas about what he wants to do with >> npmjs.org. And since he is the node police, that means if we want something, >> we'll have to either convince him otherwise, or build it outside of what >> he's doing. Many people might not know, but they are working on enhancements >> to npmjs.org that help with discoverability. If we had more info about what >> that looked like, it might give us some ideas. Or people can decide to build >> their own thing. Essentially what I'm hearing is you want an extended search >> index that includes npm registry modules and github repos that represent >> node modules. We'd need to be able to tell the different between the 2, and >> have a way to explicitly publish github repos to this system. As Isaac said, >> this isn't a trivial undertaking. And people should keep this in mind when >> they casually ask for the core team to take on doing something like this. >> But it's doable if people really want it and are willing to put in some >> work. You are not bound by what the npm core team decides to support. >> >> :Marco >> >> >> >> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 3:15 AM, George Stagas <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> 2013/5/28 Isaac Schlueter <[email protected]>: >>> >> How many disputes do you receive per month? >>> > >>> > Usually less than 2 per month. But I have no way of knowing how often >>> > authors talk amongst themselves if they already have some sort of >>> > relationship. >>> > >>> >> Is there a mailing list or something where I can see ownership >>> >> changes and reasons for such changes? >>> > >>> > No. The ownership of an author's modules is their own business. I >>> > only get involved when absolutely necessary. >>> > >>> > >>> >> 3. a module discovery platform (but sadly, only for the npm registry) >>> >> Let's just fix #3 to include user/repo projects. >>> > >>> > Sorry, George, that's exactly what I'm saying I *won't* do, ever. The >>> > word "just" there is particularly odd, as if doing so would not >>> > involve a significant amount of work, or have a significant amount of >>> > side-effects. On the contrary, it would be a tremendous amount of >>> > work with wide-ranging side effects. It's never going to happen. >>> > You're asking for confusion, and I won't do it. >>> > >>> > >>> >> You say you'll be frustrated if you see require('request') and it >>> >> isn't 'mikeal/request' but I'm equally frustrated when I read 'chaos' >>> >> 'maga' >>> >> 'jjw' 'slag' and have to dig in npmjs.org to find out what each one does. >>> > >>> > So, then just don't use modules that have stupid names. How is >>> > "merge" any less vague than "chaos"? What is it merging? Is it for >>> > doing three-way merges a la git, or merging JS objects, or applying >>> > patch files, or merging edits from multiple sources using functional >>> > transforms? I have no way of knowing from that name. >>> > >>> > Be as descriptive as you need to, using as many words as necessary, >>> > until the name is unique. You can always do `var merge = >>> > require('object-deep-merge')` or `var merge = require('string-merge')` >>> > or `var merge = require('git-style-three-way-merge')` or `var merge = >>> > require('merge-patch-file')` or `var merge = >>> > require('merge-functional-transforms')`. Better discoverability, >>> > better readability, better debuggability. >>> > >>> > I believe that this technique will work for the next several hundred >>> > million modules, at least. There's a lot of english words, and the >>> > upper limit on folder name length is very high on most operating >>> > systems. (On windows, it gets hairy, but Node uses UNC paths by >>> > default, so it's fine.) >>> > >>> > >>> >> But, since *some* people do want to use gh paths I think it's improper >>> >> to tell us all that we're wrong and that this is life and we should >>> >> live with it or keep our projects in our closets because we don't like >>> >> obscure naming. >>> > >>> > I'm not telling you that you're improper for using github paths, or >>> > that you have to keep your project in your closet. >>> > >>> > I'm saying that the npm search is not going to index anything that >>> > isn't published to npm. I believe that this is a reasonable >>> > constraint. Want to be in npm search? Pick a name that isn't taken, >>> > and publish to it. Pretty reasonable trade-off, I think. >>> > >>> > I'm also telling you that calling different things by the same name is >>> > a recipe for unnecessary complexity. >>> > >>> > I'm *not* suggesting that you use "obscure" names! That's terrible! >>> > I'm suggesting that you use *more* descriptive names, which are unique >>> > in the Node community, and that you publish them to npm, because that >>> > is the most easy way to share code with the Node community, and >>> > because discoverability comes with that for free. >>> > >>> > If, for some reason, you'd like to pull your code from github instead >>> > (or any git repo, in fact), then Good News! npm can do that. I often >>> > point a dependency to a fork of my own while waiting for the author to >>> > take a patch and publish to npm. But what I don't do is have multiple >>> > different things with the same vague short name, and I certainly am >>> > not going to encourage that by having different things with the same >>> > name showing up in search results on the npm website. >>> > >>> > Bottom line: I'm not telling you what to do. *You* can do whatever >>> > you want. I'm telling you what I'm going to do, and not going to do. >>> > It's really not negotiable, I'm sorry. >>> > >>> > If you want discoverability via npm, then publish to the npm registry, >>> > with all the constraints that that entails. That's all there is to >>> > it. >>> > >>> >>> That is awesome and understood, thanks for the descriptive answer. I >>> was thinking more of an ad-hoc solution that doesn't mess with npm >>> metadata or the registry, but that is fine, I'll find a way around >>> this, maybe dual packaging with a long name for npm that depends on >>> the smaller gh path, or writing an indexing service :) >>> >>> Btw, all the drama in this thread could have been avoided, I never >>> expected this kind of reactions for expressing my apparently unique >>> thoughts to the world. I will think 1000 times before posting anything >>> now and I believe others will suffer the same. Thanks to everyone who >>> contributes to that. >>> >>> > >>> > On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:11 AM, Ryan Schmidt >>> > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On May 27, 2013, at 03:27, George Stagas wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> Good to know about your thoroughly explained arguments but nobody's >>> >>> suggesting npm or the npm registry namespacing to change. Learn to >>> >>> read. >>> >> >>> >> My enjoyment in reading the discussions in this group is increased >>> >> when the conversation remains polite, so I'd like to advocate for that. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> -- >>> >> Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ >>> >> Posting guidelines: >>> >> https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >> Groups "nodejs" group. >>> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >> [email protected] >>> >> For more options, visit this group at >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en >>> >> >>> >> --- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> >> Groups "nodejs" group. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> >> an email to [email protected]. >>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >>> >> >>> > >>> > -- >>> > -- >>> > Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ >>> > Posting guidelines: >>> > https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "nodejs" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > [email protected] >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en >>> > >>> > --- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> > Groups "nodejs" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> > an email to [email protected]. >>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ >>> Posting guidelines: >>> https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "nodejs" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected] >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>> Google Groups "nodejs" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/nodejs/mhRUeX8EX2g/unsubscribe?hl=en. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>> [email protected]. >>> >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Marco Rogers >> [email protected] | https://twitter.com/polotek >> >> Life is ten percent what happens to you and ninety percent how you respond >> to it. >> - Lou Holtz >> >> -- >> -- >> Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ >> Posting guidelines: >> https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "nodejs" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected] >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "nodejs" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> > > > -- > -- > Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ > Posting guidelines: > https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "nodejs" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected] > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/nodejs?hl=en?hl=en > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "nodejs" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > -- -- Job Board: http://jobs.nodejs.org/ Posting guidelines: https://github.com/joyent/node/wiki/Mailing-List-Posting-Guidelines You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "nodejs" group. 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