Dear Markus, I think you are better off taking a deep breath, perhaps removing some strongly worded sentences, and bring up the topic on one of the RIPE mailing lists: https://www.ripe.net/participate/mail/ripe-mailing-lists/ripe-list
Kind regards, Job On Fri, Feb 15, 2019 at 9:47 Mel Beckman <m...@beckman.org> wrote: > Sorry, but not only is your giant bolus of a rant not operational, it’s > not even North American. Please respect the boundaries of our group and > keep your venting in Europe where it belongs. This isn’t a flame, it’s just > a polite request that you knock it off. > > -mel beckman > > > On Feb 15, 2019, at 7:37 AM, Markus <unive...@truemetal.org> wrote: > > > > Hi list! > > > > The following is off-topic/venting. It's about RIPE and my company in > Germany. If you don't care about this even remotely, don't read on and > don't flame me. I'm just so pissed and I have no other connection to the > ISP (and related) community than the NANOG mailing list and I know there > are some other European ISPs on this list. Here goes: > > > > > > My company has been a RIPE LIR for 17 years now. This week was the first > time ever that I became, was and still am really, really pissed at RIPE. > > > > There's some madness going on in RIPEs legal department. It appears they > recently hired some retard who now wants to prove he/she is a smartass. > Harsh words, but I have no other explanation for what's going on right now! > > > > Here's the story: > > > > Sunday, 10th February, 17:08 CET: I sent away the online application for > an additional LIR account. Automatic E-Mail confirmation received. > > > > Monday, 11th February, 15:07 CET: I didn't receive a human reply yet, > and since the business day was nearing its end, I mailed them about the > status, and asked whether I could come by their Amsterdam office the next > day to sign the required documents - in order to speed up the whole process. > > > > Monday, 11th February, 15:57 CET: Reply from RIPE. Let me just copy and > paste: "I regret to inform you that we do not offer the possibility to sign > your contracts in our office and regrettably there is no option to speed up > the application procedure." - Ok, no biggie. But then: > > > > > > Quote start. > > > > "We can see that this is an additional LIR account for Lightup Network > Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. > > > > We are currently reviewing applications with a legal entity type 'GmbH & > Co. KG' together with our legal department and they have stated the > following: "GmbH & Co. KG" is a sub-form of a "KG" (partnership). > > > > It normally consists of a general partner and one or more limited > partners, which can be legal or natural persons. > > > > According to "Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE NCC Registration > Data" the signing party of an agreement can either be a legal or a natural > person. A "KG" is not considered a legal person and cant be the signing > party in our agreements. > > > > The agreement can be signed though by one of the legal or natural > persons that are partners (general or limited). We therefore cannot > register Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. > > > > As you already have an LIR account with us, we will have to update your > existing account, de.lightupnet, before we can register this second account > for Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. > > > > I created a new ticket for your company update and my colleagues will > contact you shortly for the update." > > > > Quote end. > > > > > > That didn't sound so good. I've had a company with the legal form GmbH & > Co. KG (it's a German company) for about 15 years now and my initial gut > feeling was "That's just plain bullsh*t!". > > > > > > Tuesday, 12th February, 12:30: I receive another E-Mail. New ticket, as > they promised. > > > > > > Quote start. > > > > "It has come to our attention, that the legal name of your LIR account > has been registered incorrectly. > > > > It was advised by our Legal Department that the legal form of your > company as "GmbH & Co. KG" is a form of a general partnership that does not > have a legal personality. > > > > If there is a document proving opposite, please send it to us. According > to our procedure, we can only sign an agreement with a legal person that > has a legal personality or a natural person. > > > > Therefore, we will have to correct your legal name to <Markus Stalder > trading as "Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG">, instead of <Lightup > Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG>." > > > > Quote end. > > > > > > They also asked that I upload a photo/scan of my passport, which I did. > I just thought: Ok, let them have their way. If they want to change my LIRs > description, who really cares. All I want is to create a 2nd LIR and speed > this whole thing up. But, since they want to be SO LEGALLY CORRECT, I > replied and mentioned the following. Let me copy and paste. > > > > > > Quote start. > > > > "I just uploaded my passport. > > > > However, following your logic, you need to change all of the following > German legal forms in your database to "Individual-name trading as ...": > > > > - OHG > > - KG > > - GmbH & Co. OHG > > - GmbH & Co. KG > > > > I understand that you would have to do that with a GbR, as a GbR cannot > get registered in the commercial register of companies and you need to > specify the names of the individuals. But I think with the above 4 legal > forms you are making as mistake here. > > > > Although it is correct that a GmbH & Co. KG does not have a legal > personality that differs from its general partners (Persoenlich haftende > Gesellschafterin) or limited partners (Kommanditist), a GmbH & Co. KG is > still a legal entity as its able to sue in front of court, or get sued in > front of court. A GmbH & Co. KG can also purchase rights and enter into > liabilities, can purchase property and other in rem rights related to > estates. (Source: < > https://www.frankfurt-main.ihk.de/existenzgruendung/rechtsfragen/idem/kg/ > >) > > > > That being said, since Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG was > founded, I have never ever signed a contract where the contractual partner > was "Markus Stalder trading as Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG" but > the contractual partner was always Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG. > That includes application forms towards government entities as well as > contracts with larger corporations. > > > > Actually, my gut feeling based on my own experience with my GmbH & Co. > KG in the last decades tells me that you are making a mistake here. > > > > And, if you want to be really accurate: You must be aware that the > Kommanditist (limited partner) is not allowed to represent the company. > That is something only the Komplementaerin (general partner) can do. The > general partner of Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG is AirAccess > GmbH. > > > > I'm attaching both company extracts for your convenience. > > > > So, correct would be: > > > > AirAccess GmbH trading as Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG" > > > > Quote end. > > > > > > Wednesday, 13th February, 18:02: Reply from RIPE: > > > > > > Quote start: > > > > "Many thanks for the clarification and the provided documents. > > > > Please be informed that our Due Diligence for the Quality of the RIPE > NCC Registration Data <https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-700> > has been implemented in 2018. As the application process for our members > was not so strict before, it was possible to register an LIR account under > the partnership name. Currently, we are working on correcting these details > in the Database. > > > > At this moment we are reviewing German applications with a legal entity > type 'GmbH & Co. KG' together with our legal department. Thus the > information you provided is very helpful. > > > > On the review the documents you submitted, we indeed can see that > "AirAccess GmbH" is a general partner with a special right to represent the > company. The names of both LIR accounts (de.lightupnet, de.lightupnet1) > will be corrected tomorrow. It will be confirmed to you once the account > are updated." > > > > Quote end. > > > > > > ... another day passes ... > > > > > > Thursday, 14th February, 16:11: Now for the E-Mail from RIPE that blew > my mind, in a negative sense. > > > > > > Quote start: > > > > "Many thanks for your patience. > > > > We have reviewed your case internally and agreed that there is no need > to sign a new agreement for LIR account <de.lightupnet>, as it was signed > by the director of the company. > > > > It has also come to our attention that, the company AirAccess GmbH (reg. > No HRB 56386) already has LIR account <de.airaccess>. > > > > Therefore LIR <de.airaccess> should be linked as an additional account > to <de.lightupnet>, and <de.lightupnet1>. > > > > Please be informed that the following will be applied to all additional > LIR accounts: > > > > - The /22 IPv4 allocation you will receive is subject to the RIPE NCC > > Transfer Policy and can therefore only be transferred 24 months after the > > allocation date. > > - Members with multiple LIR accounts are entitled to just one vote at > RIPE > > NCC General Meetings. The oldest LIR account will receive the vote. > > - If you wish to transfer internet resources between your LIR accounts, > > you need to pay the full annual service fee for all LIR accounts. > > - If you wish to close LIR account, you need to pay the full annual > > service fee for all LIR accounts. > > > > At this moment could you please inform us what name you prefer for LIR > accounts <de.lightupnet>, <de.lightupnet1>: "AirAccess GmbH" or "AirAccess > GmbH trading us Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG"? > > > > Once it is clarified, we will proceed with updating the legal details of > your accounts and process the application for <de.lightupnet1>." > > > > Quote end. > > > > > > Spontaneous thought: HOLY F*CK, ARE THEY SERIOUS ?! ?! ?! They want to > change the name of my company - Lightup Network Solutions GmbH & Co. KG - > to a completely different company: AirAccess GmbH !!! Totally unrelated to > each other, different business, different everything. The only thing these > two companies have in common is that they're both mine. RIPE MUST BE NUTS! > Here my reply: > > > > > > Quote start. > > > > "Hi <name of RIPE NCC support person>, > > > > thanks for your mail. > > > > Ok, now you are really taking it over the top. > > > > 1) You want to link AirAccess GmbH as an additional account to > de.lightupnet. And you want to do this for a company which is a legal > entity by itself. > > > > I do not allow you to do this. AirAccess GmbH is a legal entity by > itself and I do not want that you change anything about its current LIR > status, name or anything else. > > > > 2) You are offering that I can choose the name for de.lightupnet and > de.lightupnet1 to be "AirAccess GmbH", a company which is an entity by > itself and is merely the Komplementaerin (general partner) for Lightup > Network Solutions GmbH & GmbH Co. KG. > > > > I'm shocked by that idea. That is just completely wrong. > > > > Of course I do NOT want de.lightupnet and de.lightupnet1 to be named > "AirAccess GmbH" because it would be an factual error. And I don't want > RIPE to make wrong statements about our company/companies towards the > public. > > > > It would be like offering to present nl.ripe as KPN. Or Nike as Adidas. > > > > As it appears right now your legal department is doing a mistake when it > comes to understanding how GmbH + Co. KGs work. > > > > Could you also please let me know the E-Mail address or telephone number > where I can file a complaint about this whole procedure? > > > > Thank you." > > > > Quote end. > > > > > > This is where it stands right now. > > > > It's Friday, 15th February. > > > > The work week is over. > > > > I'm sitting here, waiting for RIPE since Monday to send me the LIR > agreement for the 2nd LIR, so that I can sign it, pay it, and be done with > it. > > > > > > My rhetorical questions are: > > > > 1) Are they fucking serious ... I can't remember the last time I was > this angry at anyone. > > > > 2) It's RIPE. A large, established organisation that's been around > forever. WHY THE F*CK does it take them always 1 day to process something, > to reply to something? They have TONS of employees, they have TONS of LIRs > that pay them TONS of money, why is everything moving so slowly with them > ?! ?! ?! It's 2019, not 1995 FOR F*CKS SAKE !!! Get your act together and > adapt to the times, modernize yourself and BE FASTER. UARRRGHHHL. > > > > 3) Why in heavens name do they EXACTLY have to start with this whole > f*cked-up process when I ACTUALLY need something from them (a 2nd LIR > account)? Why in this very moment? Yeah, because my company popped up on > their screen because I applied for a 2nd LIR account, makes sense. But, > could they not simply process the damn LIR application at the same time to > speed this whole thing up, and later change this sh*t. No, of course, it > would be not efficient for them to do that, but it's NOT MY FAULT they > didn't ask to update this data/fix this company sh*t earlier. But now THEY > MAKE IT MY PROBLEM. Because I'm losing precious time. F*CK! > > > > 4) If you look at the LIR list for Germany here - < > https://www.ripe.net/membership/indices/DE.html> - and search for "GmbH & > Co. KG" in the document, you will see many companies that are still > "unchanged": Company name GmbH & Co. KG, but you will also see some that > were already "updated" according to RIPE logic: "Firstname Lastname trading > as "Company GmbH & Co. KG" - the "funny" thing is that this is just wrong > as I explained earlier. They have to re-do all these changes. By looking at > this list it appears I'm the first where they offer to change it to > "Another-company-name GmbH trading as Company GmbH & Co. KG" JUST BECAUSE I > told them that with GmbH & Co. KGs the Kommanditist (legal partner) is not > allowed to represent the company. So, being the first, and looking at that > list for comparison tells me they have no idea what they are doing! > > > > > > Have a good day everyone and down with unnecessary, over-the-top > > bureaucracy! It's 2019 FOR F*CKS SAKE!!! > > > > > > Regards > > Markus >
