Jeremy, et al --
...and then Jeremy Blosser said...
% David T-G [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] wrote:
% > It seems that mutt is cresting one of those points of explosive growth
% > where we see a massive influx of clueless newbies -- perhaps, due to
...
% >
% > Unfortunately, this translates directly into more traffic on the mailing
...
% > the Original Ones are getting tired of this crap and are unsubscribing or
% > strongly contemplating it. I can hardly blame them; I saw the same
% > decline on the sun-managers list a couple of years ago, and went that
% > route myself.
%
% I'm glad someone else is seeing this the same way I am. I'd honestly be
Yeah; you're not crazy.
% off this list long ago except that I'm committed to maintaining the web
(OK, maybe you're a little crazy :-)
% page and want to make sure I catch patches/etc. to add there. But I spend
% far too much time deleting stuff I just don't have time to keep up with
% anymore, which means I probably still miss some things I should be adding.
Ah, well.
%
% And I'm hardly one of the "Original Ones". I'd wonder how many of them are
% even left.
Yeah. Of course, by the end of the day I feel like an OOne 'cuz I'm so
tired and/or disillusioned, and I only found mutt at 0.88 :-)
%
% This list is transitioning, though, from a -users list to a -newbie list,
...
% well enough, I've been that masochist enough times myself.
Yeah. So it seems.
%
% I'd almost suggest a mutt-newbie list, but I hesitate to push anything
% that'll encourage the idea that mutt is a general purpose client. It
That, IMHO, is the core of the problem (aside from the fact that people
just don't like to read docs).
% really isn't, and I don't think it should be. Different skill levels have
FWIW, I agree.
% different needs -- there's nothing wrong with that. Of course, the dearth
% of MUAs that don't just suck or make up their own standards as they go
% makes Mutt one of the only options for people who just want a decent cli
% client with PGP support, regardless of their "expert" level.
Yep.
%
% Anyway, I'm in no position to speak authoritatively or anything, either --
% I just don't want to see this list become so much noise that it stops being
% worth anything as a serious user list.
Yep.
%
% > - asking, most very humbly, the doc writers to spend some time on the
% > FAQ or Quick Start, even at the expense of the full documentation,
% > just to round it out and provide something to throw at requesters
%
% The only issue with this is that as far as I'm aware there is no such
% entity as "the doc writers". People that add or change things include doc
OK; point taken.
% patches. If they don't, or the docs they give aren't very good, someone
% else might work on fixing them, if they have time. Regardless, the people
% who answer the myriad of questions on this list honestly probably
% understand better than the developers what needs attention. You're all
% talking about writing this 'quick start' stuff -- do it. Give me a URL,
Yeah, I know; I have a FAQ entry on my plate that I haven't done :-)
% and I'll add it to the web page. If it's kept current and of good quality
% I'll link it alongside the FAQ and manual on the index page.
Fair enough!
%
% Really to me it sounds like you're all wanting to basically write an
% alternate FAQ, which sounds fine to me -- the existing one seems somewhat
... or perhaps just update or revamp the current one.
%
% > - better promoting the searchable archives and perhaps redesigning the
% > main mutt page to first send folks to answers
%
% We need archives that don't suck. Egroups sucks. Mail-archive is better,
Yeah.
% but pretty basic. Anyone who wants to start a list archive that sucks
% less, give me a URL so I can link it.
If someone can point me at how to do it, I have the server space to make
it happen. I don't have a lot of time, so I'd need some tutoring :-)
%
% Of course any of this assumes people will RTFM/FAQ/archives at all instead
Yeah...
% of expecting the list to do it for them. And honestly, people are going to
% keep asking the list instead of the manual as long as it gets them answers.
That's very true, and that's why I thoght that an automated answering
mechanism might work out well. If we know the answers to these
questions, it might be nice to fire off a message to a mailbot with a few
keywords and let the mailbot do the work of sending the mail with all of
the answer places nicely listed and not forgotten, even...
% Sometimes a RTFM response, while it may seem rude, can be the best answer
% you can give someone because it makes them learn something on their own,
% while leaving the list members free to deal with other things, like
% improving the manual and dealing with more complicated questions. Teach a
% man to fish and all that crap.
Yeah. Sometimes that *is* the only way.
%
% --
% Jeremy Blosser | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://jblosser.firinn.org/
% -----------------+-------------------------+------------------------------
% the crises posed a question / just beneath the skin
% the virtue in my veins replied / that quitters never win
:-D
--
David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles
(play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie
(work) [EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.bigfoot.com/~davidtg/ Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg!
The "new millennium" starts at the beginning of 2001. There was no year 0.
Note: If bigfoot.com gives you fits, try sector13.org in its place. *sigh*
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