On Wed, Sep 6, 2017 at 8:24 PM percytheprefect < percythepref...@protonmail.com> wrote:
> >And what's the ethos of this project? > > Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance trumps all. > Adoption, usability, and attracting talented collaborators are all important. Features and performance are important, but one must take a holistic view and balance different objectives. > This is what the MimbleWimble white paper's author had in mind when he > released it to the wild -- he came up with a clearly superior solution to > other scaling/privacy enhancing technologies. > Monsieur Jedusor is of course welcome to participate, but this project is an implementation of an idea by a bunch of people on the internet, and those people should decide how to run the project. (And I'm not including myself here, I haven't made any contributions to the code.) >So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? People > with merit. So just to be clear, you are planning on banning people that > disagree with you. For instance, I disagree with a code of conduct, will > you ban me? I really do think it is a terrible idea that will be used as a > tool for political gain down the road. > Nobody said anything about banning disagreement. Disagreeing with a code of conduct is not a violation. > Would you accept a superior solution for a problem if the person was > "toxic"? > Yes. Codes of conduct that I'm aware of don't ban ideas, they ban toxic participants. I think that, in the long run, encouraging a a positive, civil, and welcoming environment will do more for the health of the project than allowing people who are unable to be civil participate. We're not talking about kindergarten-level civility here. As a concrete example, the Rust community and project are thriving, by any metric I can think of. I think that the code of conduct is a factor in that. > Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging > > Local Time: September 6, 2017 10:08 PM > UTC Time: September 7, 2017 3:08 AM > From: igno.pever...@protonmail.com > To: percytheprefect <percythepref...@protonmail.com> > Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com>, mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net < > mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net> > > > This directly contradicts the ethos of this project. > > And what's the ethos of this project? I'm curious. Also don't use "we" > when making questionable statements, I don't want to be included. > > > Merit in an open source community isn't only about code, it's also about > how well you collaborate, how you handle differing opinion and generally > being polite and respectful to each other. Ever heard of "community over > code"? So yes, I'd have no problem banning toxic individuals. Who decides? > People with merit. > > Looks like a code of conduct may be a good idea... > > - Igno > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging > Local Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM > UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:44 AM > From: percythepref...@protonmail.com > To: Jackson Palmer <he...@ummjackson.com> > mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net> > > >Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) > small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin > with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit > entity might be a good idea > > Strong NACK. This is a terrible idea. If you want to organize a INFORMAL > group that solicits donations for grin and allocates funds as you see fit > be my guest, but don't go claiming you (or your foundation) is some sort of > authority figure with this project. This directly contradicts the ethos of > this project. > > >The project needs a Code of Conduct > > Working code that improves Grin's feature set and performance. That seems > like all we need for a code of conduct. It seems like the people that don't > contribute working code that improve the feature set / performance of > various crypto projects focus on things that waste time like "Codes of > Conduct". Are you suggesting we ban somebody from contributing to the > project if they don't follow the code of conduct? That is insanity -- it > invites politics into the project instead of promoting a meritocracy. > > >If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start > talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user > experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right > now, Grin needs to nail that > > It seems that every cryptocoin project that has a market cap > $1B has a > terrible UI/UX. What does that say about the importance of the UI/UX > compared to the core protocol? Let developers up the stack figure out how > to handle this. We need to build a rock solid foundation for them to build > their applications on top of. Let's not get distracted with things that > aren't important at this point. No one will spend their time building > things on top of Grin if the core protocol is broken. > > > > Sent with ProtonMail <https://protonmail.com> Secure Email. > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging > Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:03 PM > UTC Time: September 7, 2017 2:03 AM > From: he...@ummjackson.com > To: mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net > > Adding my thoughts on this: > > *### Naming* > > - Blockchain: Agreed with Andrew that a Bitcoin-like blockchain with > MimbleWimble transactions is the best way to position this... this will > obviously draw the question "well why wouldn't we just wait for Bitcoin to > implement this feature?" to which we'd all laugh, but it's an honest > question the less technical folks will pose. The solution is to just have a > good answer, eg. "A modern, scalable implementation of a Bitcoin-like > blockchain with the added security of MimbleWimble-based transactions" > > - Implementation: Grin. I wasn't a huge fan of this name at first but it's > grown on me and is short/sweet. > > - Coin: If you look at any other popular cryptocurrency out there, nobody > really refers to the units of currency in everyday conversations, or there > often isn't much difference between the name and unit of currency (Bitcoin > = Bitcoin, Ethereum = Ether). So I ultimately think the best option here is > to simply call the coin largest denomination a "grin", as people will > naturally gravitate towards that. For example "how many grin are you > holding?" or "I was able to mine 6 grin the other day". As for the smallest > denomination ala a "satoshi" I would recommend shying away from anything > tacky ("ingot" sounds tacky to me) or in the realm of copyright law as some > have mentioned. My recommendation would be something really simple like > "bits' or "microgrin" etc. Something boring/plain. > > *### Messaging* > > I think you should break this into two sections: what makes Grin awesome > (benefits) vs. why this project should be trusted > > *#### What makes Grin awesome* > > - A lightweight, modern blockchain that scales > - Maintains your privacy and security by default > - Open to everyone with centralization-resistant mining > > (I really think something about micro-transactions with low fees would be > great here, but do we believe that's going to be a reality?) > > *#### Why you should trust the Grin project* > > - No ICO, no pre-mine, no gimmicks > - Open source codebase that anyone can contribute to > - Diverse community of contributing developers with no single controlling > enttity > > *### Other misc. thoughts* > > - Everything is peachy right now because this group is (relatively) > small... I'd recommend a foundation be formed, even informally to begin > with to handle project decisions democratically. In the future a non-profit > entity might be a good idea > - The project needs a Code of Conduct (@Igno, do you have any experience > in this field or should we consult someone who does?) > - If we're offering privacy/security by default I think we need to start > talking UI/UX and how it really makes it accessible to users... the user > experience is a big part of the barrier to entry to privacy tools right > now, Grin needs to nail that > > Hope that helps :) > > Cheers, > *Jackson.* > > > On Wed, Sep 6, 2017, at 05:27 PM, Cryptagoras wrote: > > # Naming > > I agree with Andrew, that MimbleWimble is more fitting on the > transaction-type naming rather than the blockchain. I like Grin and could > see it being used for both the blockchain (that have to include MW > probably) and the implementation. > > As for the coin, I agree with Casey Rodarmor that ethereum's subunits > structure is extreme and personally find it counter-intuitive. I find no > need to add a lot of more new terms, instead combine existing structures > with a single base. Assuming a value of 10^8 like Bitcoin, I would propose > the following: > > 1 ingot (1-999 ingots) (smallest denomination) > 1 tingot = 1.000 ingots (1-999 thousand ingots) > 1 mingot = 1.000.000 ingots (1-99 million ingots) > 1 grin = 100.000.000 ingots > > I find/imagine the suggested `galleon` being a bit awkward in practice. So > instead you could use `grin(s)` which shares the sound of `green` :P and > has a nice play there but also it's very useful to have short easy word. > > (Another route could be to have `grams` instead of `ingots` and have > [grams, kilograms|kg, tons] with 1 `ingot` being the full unit - it would > also help spread the SI mass units over imperial :P) > > Giving names to all subunits causes fragmentation on the communication > where some people choose to use the vanity/homage units and others the "SI" > ones. Having 3 levels of subunits (with a single base) fits the current way > of people using numbers more naturally. > > # Messaging > > As for the messaging, I agree with what has been written. The only thing I > would add is an answer to a very common question I hear (mainly from > hardcore bitcoiners who love MW & Grin). About the plans of getting > integrated in a way to Bitcoin (pegged via sidechains) or even a native > integration of MW. So it would be good to have an answer to go along with > the rest if there's a decision. > > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Re: [Mimblewimble] Branding and messaging > Local Time: September 6, 2017 9:32 PM > UTC Time: September 6, 2017 6:32 PM > From: apoels...@wpsoftware.net > To: Casey Rodarmor <ca...@rodarmor.com> > mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net <mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net> > > On Wed, Sep 06, 2017 at 08:12:46AM +0000, Casey Rodarmor wrote: > > I"ll bite! > > > > > > Naming > > ====== > > > > 1. I think that MimbleWimble is more in the transaction type category, > > instead of the blockchain type category. > > > > Perhaps it"s a silly distinction, but one of the things that I like so > much > > about Grin is that, if you squint a bit, it"s just a good ol" blockchain > in > > terms of proof of work, mining, and transaction propagation. > > > > So I might say that Grin is a bitcoin-style blockchain with mimblewimble > > transactions, which have privacy and scaling benefits. (And, obviously, > > turn the whole thing into quite the weird mutant, but don"t require a > > different, untested, and much weaker security model, like proof of > stake.) > > > > +1 to this. It is true that Mimblewimble changes some aspects of how the > chain > works, but I"ve gotten a lot of questions from the public along the lines > of > "does MW use PoS/scrypt/ghost/whatever" and the answer is always "MW is > totally > agnostic to that stuff". > > > 2. I think Grin is a great name. Does it have a Harry Potter connection? > I > > always assumed that it was from Gellert Grindelwald"s name. Another > really > > apt connection is to the grin of the Cheshire Cat in Alice"s Adventures > in > > Wonderland. After all, it"s all that"s left after the rest of the beast > has > > disappeared. > > > > Igno said somewhere that it comes from "gringotts" the wizarding bank. I > like > the Chesire Cat connection :P. > > > 3. May I suggest the galleon, the sickle and the knut[0]? The galleon > would > > be ether, the knut would be wei, and the sickle would be somewhere in the > > middle. If there"s no utility to the sickle it could be left out, but it > > might be good to have an intermediate unit, in case the price increases > to > > the point where galleons are too big, but knuts are still too small. > > > > I think ethereum goes overboard with naming subunits[1], but three might > be > > the sweet spot. > > > > I"m a little worried about drawing the ire of Rowling or her lawyers. She"s > historically been very friendly toward fan projects but a monetary system > might > be viewed as being in a different category. To the best of my knowledge > she has > never commented publicly or privately about Mimblewimble. > > > > > Messaging > > ========= > > > > I think that above and beyond formulating a coherent value proposition, > > it"s important to use terminology and framing which helps people > understand > > the advantages that a normal person would get from using Grin, and avoids > > the impression that a privacy focused cryptocurrency only has illicit > uses. > > Zcashes messaging is good here, for example the "upholding > confidentiality" > > section on their home page[2]. > > > > Words like "obfuscate", "anonymous", and "secret" aren"t good, since they > > have negative connotations and conjure images of illicit activities. > > However, words like "privacy" and "security" have positive connotations > > that people can understand and relate to, and I think it"ll be an ongoing > > but important challenge to keep the messaging consistent and on point > here. > > > > [0] http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Wizarding_currency > > [1] https://etherconverter.online > > [2] https://z.cash > > > > We"re not making private transactions possible, there are already a > million ways > to move wealth around the world covertly. We"re making privacy *cheap* and > *accessible*. > > People doing illicit things can afford privacy because there"s an > immediate and > direct cost to them if they lose it (and likely a direct reward for > maintaining > it, depending on the nature of their industry). Ordinary people who are > being > surveilled or censored cannot afford this, because the costs are indirect > and > invisible and they don"t get rewarded in any way. They"re just trying to > pay > their rent and buy groceries without having advertisers targeting and > manipulating > them, and to live their lives and support causes they want to without > anybody > throwing rocks through their windows or breaking down their doors. > > These are the people we care about. They"re the ones who lose their > privacy when > their banks and governments make it expensive or confusing or unavailable. > Criminals > don"t give a shit. > > > -- > Andrew Poelstra > Mathematics Department, Blockstream > Email: apoelstra at wpsoftware.net > Web: https://www.wpsoftware.net/andrew > > "A goose alone, I suppose, can know the loneliness of geese > who can never find their peace, > whether north or south or west or east" > --Joanna Newsom > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble > Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble > Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > -- > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble > Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp >
-- Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble Post to : mimblewimble@lists.launchpad.net Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~mimblewimble More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
