I wish we could go back to the old days where a postmaster could just send an email or pick up the phone. You know who I am! I'm trying my best to kill abusers of my system - not help them! But, alas, I understand there aren't 20 of us anymore. :)
</ lament > Regards, Damon On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 5:15 PM <mailop-requ...@mailop.org> wrote: > > Send mailop mailing list submissions to > mailop@mailop.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > mailop-requ...@mailop.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > mailop-ow...@mailop.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of mailop digest..." > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) > (Hans-Martin Mosner) > 2. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) (Scott Mutter) > 3. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) > (Luis E. =?utf-8?q?Mu=C3=B1oz?=) > 4. Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) (Richard W) > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Hans-Martin Mosner <h...@heeg.de> > To: mailop@mailop.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 21:57:40 +0200 > Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) > Am 29.06.20 um 21:30 schrieb Michael Wise via mailop: > > > > A *VERY* strong economic argument. > > > > I know. I'm mainly venting my frustration, knowing too well that my activity > won't flip a single bit in Redmond. > > Hoping that some organization would do the right thing because it's the right > thing to do has become pretty futile (not saying that there ever was much > hope...) > > Cheers, > Hans-Martin > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Scott Mutter <mailopl...@amssupport.info> > To: mailop@mailop.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 16:11:18 -0500 > Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) > Maybe the answer is that not enough other mail server administrators are > shining a light on just how poorly Microsoft (and any other big named > provider) does in regards to incidents like this. > > In my particular case at the moment, Microsoft is blocking one of our mail > server IPs. > > Microsoft has not provided any evidence that anything bad has ever come from > this IP address. (Which the pros/cons of disclosing this have already been > discussed) > > The IP is not listed on any other public spam blacklist. > > The IP has a Senderscore of 99 - which I think still means something? > > All-in-all I'm just not seeing why Microsoft is blocking the IP. Show me > some proof and I'll believe you. > > Outside of that, what am I suppose to do to resolve whatever that issue might > be? Since you won't tell me what the issue is. I guess you just want us to > lie on the ticket replies and say "We've resolved these issues" even though I > didn't do anything. This is how the problem just keeps snowballing into > larger and larger problems. > > Now is the IP blocked because of a larger class-C, class-B, or some subnet > block? That'd be nice to know. But even if it is, if you're not seeing any > activity from the specific IP address I'm referring to, why can't you just > whitelist that IP from the subnet block? > > It's impossible to get a hold of anyone using Microsoft website contact form > links that knows a lick about how their own mail servers work. If you tell > them that you're IP is blocked they try to figure out why you can't access > http://outlook.com > > All the while, our users see us as being the bad guys. They don't believe > that Microsoft/Hotmail/Outlook can be a bad guy because they're too big. I > would be half a good mind to tell our users to sign up for this Mailops > mailing list, just so they can read all of the horror stories that happen > with Microsoft/Hotmail/Outlook mail server blocks. > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:57 PM Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop > <mailop@mailop.org> wrote: >> >> Am 29.06.20 um 21:30 schrieb Michael Wise via mailop: >> >> >> >> A *VERY* strong economic argument. >> >> >> >> I know. I'm mainly venting my frustration, knowing too well that my activity >> won't flip a single bit in Redmond. >> >> Hoping that some organization would do the right thing because it's the >> right thing to do has become pretty futile (not saying that there ever was >> much hope...) >> >> Cheers, >> Hans-Martin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> mailop mailing list >> mailop@mailop.org >> https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: "Luis E. Muñoz" <mailop@lem.click> > To: Scott Mutter <mailopl...@amssupport.info> > Cc: mailop@mailop.org > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 15:10:16 -0700 > Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) > > On 29 Jun 2020, at 14:11, Scott Mutter via mailop wrote: > > Microsoft has not provided any evidence that anything bad has ever come > from this IP address. (Which the pros/cons of disclosing this have already > been discussed) > > I don't think that in the current state of affairs, they have to provide you > with such evidence. I would certainly tell anyone affected by the firewall > rules I deploy to pound sand if they come demanding evidence. "My system, my > rules". > > It should be clear to us that the current system works well for Microsoft > clients: The advertisers probably prefer other advertisement to not make it > to the inbox. And most end users can't be bothered – or would not even know > how – to request MS to get involved with this. I posit that for those that > this gets inconvenient, they will simply ask the corresponding sender to use > their gmail account, or subscribe again. Wash. Rinse. Repeat. > > Not trying to defend them – and I'm 100& pro venting – but having been on the > other end as well as many others here, they have their reasons for being so > non-transparent. Some commercial, others not so much. > > Now is the IP blocked because of a larger class-C, class-B, or some subnet > block? That'd be nice to know. But even if it is, if you're not seeing > any activity from the specific IP address I'm referring to, why can't you > just whitelist that IP from the subnet block? > > When my $dayjob involved doing this in exchange for money, fame and celebrity > I went the transparent route. Each and every IP address we blocked included a > reason and links to evidence emails that invariably were sent by our own > users. From time to time we discovered poor reports that lead to unwarranted > blocks – those were resolved quickly. Would this scale? Not in that shape, > for sure. For a few million email accounts we held it quite well with a > couple people. I can't even imagine how much people would it take to scale > that to MS gargantuan size. > > But then many years have passed, and better tools exist today. > > Rather than the rant I had before, I'll just say that current MS technology > in email receiving is not at the forefront – and hasn't been for a long time. > The situation we're all living through is a consequence of the economics at > play. > > It's impossible to get a hold of anyone using Microsoft website contact > form links that knows a lick about how their own mail servers work. If you > tell them that you're IP is blocked they try to figure out why you can't > access http://outlook.com > > In their defense, I'm sure their numbers back them. 99.99% of the people > opening tickets are likely unable to access http://outlook.com :-) > > The thing is, we should not have to resort to interacting with their support > channels so frequently. This unfortunately won't change as long as the layer > of suspense and mystery is not lifted from the art of emailing Microsoft. > > All the while, our users see us as being the bad guys. They don't believe > that Microsoft/Hotmail/Outlook can be a bad guy because they're too big. I > would be half a good mind to tell our users to sign up for this Mailops > mailing list, just so they can read all of the horror stories that happen > with Microsoft/Hotmail/Outlook mail server blocks. > > The stories would be impossible to find because of all the questions about > how to access http://outlook.com. > > Best regards > > -lem > > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Richard W <mai...@richardw.ca> > To: mailop@mailop.org > Cc: > Bcc: > Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2020 18:14:39 -0600 > Subject: Re: [mailop] [EXTERNAL] Re: Microsoft Block list (S3150) > As others have pointed out, you are not Microsoft's customer and they > have no obligation to provide service to you. If their customers, the > people you are trying to send mail to, are not complaining about your > mail not reaching them they have no incentive to react. If their > customers start to walk or threaten to walk, then they might consider > changing. > > Their customers are happy. That's all they care about > > Richard > > On 2020-06-29 3:11 p.m., Scott Mutter via mailop wrote: > > Maybe the answer is that not enough other mail server administrators are > > shining a light on just how poorly Microsoft (and any other big named > > provider) does in regards to incidents like this. > > > > In my particular case at the moment, Microsoft is blocking one of our > > mail server IPs. > > > > Microsoft has not provided any evidence that anything bad has ever come > > from this IP address. (Which the pros/cons of disclosing this have > > already been discussed) > > > > The IP is not listed on any other public spam blacklist. > > > > The IP has a Senderscore of 99 - which I think still means something? > > > > All-in-all I'm just not seeing why Microsoft is blocking the IP. Show > > me some proof and I'll believe you. > > > > Outside of that, what am I suppose to do to resolve whatever that issue > > might be? Since you won't tell me what the issue is. I guess you just > > want us to lie on the ticket replies and say "We've resolved these > > issues" even though I didn't do anything. This is how the problem just > > keeps snowballing into larger and larger problems. > > > > Now is the IP blocked because of a larger class-C, class-B, or some > > subnet block? That'd be nice to know. But even if it is, if you're not > > seeing any activity from the specific IP address I'm referring to, why > > can't you just whitelist that IP from the subnet block? > > > > It's impossible to get a hold of anyone using Microsoft website contact > > form links that knows a lick about how their own mail servers work. If > > you tell them that you're IP is blocked they try to figure out why you > > can't access http://outlook.com > > > > All the while, our users see us as being the bad guys. They don't > > believe that Microsoft/Hotmail/Outlook can be a bad guy because they're > > too big. I would be half a good mind to tell our users to sign up for > > this Mailops mailing list, just so they can read all of the horror > > stories that happen with Microsoft/Hotmail/Outlook mail server blocks. > > > > On Mon, Jun 29, 2020 at 2:57 PM Hans-Martin Mosner via mailop > > <mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org>> wrote: > > > > Am 29.06.20 um 21:30 schrieb Michael Wise via mailop: > >> > >> __ __ > >> > >> A **VERY** strong economic argument.____ > >> > >> __ __ > >> > > I know. I'm mainly venting my frustration, knowing too well that my > > activity won't flip a single bit in Redmond. > > > > Hoping that some organization would do the right thing because it's > > the right thing to do has become pretty futile (not saying that > > there ever was much hope...) > > > > Cheers, > > Hans-Martin > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mailop mailing list > > mailop@mailop.org <mailto:mailop@mailop.org> > > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > mailop mailing list > > mailop@mailop.org > > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mailop mailing list > mailop@mailop.org > https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop _______________________________________________ mailop mailing list mailop@mailop.org https://chilli.nosignal.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mailop
