Hi All I probably should just be quiet on the matter as I seem to be only one who feels like this at all. I do though want to clarify a few points.
Firstly I completely understand the difference between keyboard shortcuts that run scripts or are a part of the particular screen reader and those that are part of the OS. Also I agree that what is intuitive for one person may not be intuitive for another, it is just what you get use to. This doesn't mean that one way is right or the other of course. This is why I was saying that someones level of comfort with a particular os is to a greater or lesser amount dependant upon wether they need to think about what keyboard combination they need to press or not. My initial point was that to be able to get the feeling of everything being natural you need to just practice and use the Mac everyday. If we are looking at the relative complexity of keyboard shortcuts in the context of a blind user, that is, with the particular screen reader of choice enabled on the particular platform then VO is often going to be behind by having the modifier key being two keys. Thankfully Apple have added the keyboard commander and quick keys. My point about the keyboard shortcut keys feeling like an after thought wasn't so much a point as it was a feeling or impression that I had. This impression is not in the context of a blind user. I have got the feeling when learning to use my Mac that if I was sighted but didn't want to use the mouse or track pad but just wanted to do everything with the keyboard then I would have a harder time then if I was using Windows and I don't just mean that I am familiar with window but not with mac. Another way of saying this is that i got the impression the proper way of doing things is with the mouse as far as the UI designers are concerned. This same ethos or design sense is in my opinion what makes the IOS platform so fantastic to us VI users. At last we have direct access to the G U I much like we would if we were sighted on a Mac or PC using a mouse. One thing that led to this impression on top of there not being a native keyboard only option to bring up a context menu was in my last one to one session in the apple store. I was using Safari to try to do something. There was a link that wasn't working using VO+Spacebar. I asked the trainer how he would click the link if he had just tabbed over to it and wasn't using the mouse or track pad. He advised that as far as he knew there wasn't a way. You just had to use a mouse. Another thing that added to the feeling is the seeming popularity of apps like Alfred and Quick Silver amongst some mac users. Anyway thanks Ann for the info on how to view some of the native keyboard shortcuts. I was aware of most of the ones you mentioned but obviously need to learn a few more so thanks. I have probably bored too many of you to death by now and reading back over what I wrote, myself as well :) I am not sure that I have explained myself well but in any case I will leave it at that. Cheers Garth . On 26/11/2011, at 8:55 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: > Hi, > There's one more thing that we must take into calculation and that i think > many blind folks may not be aware of. Many keyboard shortcuts in Windows are > in fact script specific, in other words they are scripts assigned to > shortcuts within the screen reader you use. If you took away your Jfw or > Window eyes and replaced it with another screen reader, chances are that your > familiar shortcuts would no longer work unless they are Windows specific, > whereas on the Mac, loads of shortcuts are in the operating system itself. > /Krister > > 26 nov 2011 kl. 11:38 skrev Scott Howell: > >> Garth, >> >> I would have to argue about shortcut keys as far as Word is concerned-in >> fact the entire Office Suite. I have to use such in a VM at work and since >> we switched to Office 2007, most shortcut keys appear to no longer be >> available. In addition, I think you will find there are a good number of >> shortcut keys in apps such as Word as well. I do not have a list in front of >> me, but things such as command-i to toggle italics, command-u underline, and >> so forth. True there is no context key as there is in Windows, but it's such >> a trivial thing for me to hit VO-shift-m, I just don't think about it. >> I also believe it depends on your comfort level, which goes back to the >> entire point of the thread. THe one thing I believe we will agree on is the >> fact that we can disagree. :) >> >> On Nov 26, 2011, at 3:24 AM, Garth Humphreys wrote: >> >>> Hi Ricardo and Scott >>> >>> Sorry this is just an impression I have. I will explain a little further >>> what I mean, and let me also say that I acknowledge that as a new mac user >>> I probably don't really know what I am talking about. >>> >>> It is things like bringing up a context menu. There is obviously the 4 >>> finger VO way to do this. Is there any keyboard only way of doing this >>> other then the VO one? Under windows there is a specific key for this as >>> well as at least one other 2 finger keyboard shortcut. >>> >>> I get the impression that a lot of the UI in OSX is designed to be >>> interacted with by using a mouse or now the track pad primarily. This is >>> obviously the same with windows but in windows I think that you would be >>> more likely to be able to find a keystroke which would accomplish the task >>> you wanted. VO seems to have to overcome the lack of a native keyboard >>> shortcut and it often seems that there are a lot of steps that are needed >>> to get the job done. Not to mention the number of keys that make up some of >>> the shortcuts. >>> >>> There has been a strong history of supporting keyboard shortcuts under >>> windows. I read recently somewhere, possibly in the Steve Jobs biography, >>> that at one time he wanted to get rid of arrow keys on his keyboards >>> altogether. >>> >>> I think Pages is probably a lot more efficient to use if you are able to >>> see and can use the mouse. Under word you can achieve heaps with simple >>> keyboard shortcuts. >>> >>> Anyway as I said these are just the impressions of a new mac user. >>> >>> Garth >>> >>> >>> >>> On 25/11/2011, at 9:00 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >>> >>>> I concur Recardo and I also would like some examples as well. I have been >>>> using the Mac since 2005 and I have never felt as though keyboard commands >>>> are an afterthought. >>>> >>>> On Nov 24, 2011, at 10:10 PM, Ricardo Walker wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I completely disagree that Mac OSX keystrokes feel like add ons or after >>>>> thoughts in comparison to Windows. I would appreciate if you can give >>>>> some examples of this. >>>>> Ricardo Walker >>>>> rwalker...@gmail.com >>>>> Twitter & Skype: rwalker296 >>>>> www.mobileaccess.org >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 24, 2011, at 7:19 PM, Garth Humphreys wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hi Missy >>>>>> >>>>>> I think one the reasons your not getting that comfortable with the word >>>>>> processing options on the Mac is that they actually aren't that great >>>>>> compared to MS Word. This goes beyond just that we are use to using >>>>>> Word. >>>>>> >>>>>> Keystrokes on the Mac seem to be much more of an add on or after thought >>>>>> then they are in windows. I don't mean this just from the perspective of >>>>>> a blind user, but in general without any reference to screen readers. >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't want to sound like I am bashing the Mac, I actually really like >>>>>> using it. I just want to be realistic about the limitations as well. >>>>>> Especially given that potential new users watch this list in the same >>>>>> way that I did before buying my MBA. >>>>>> >>>>>> Garth >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24/11/2011, at 11:50 PM, Missy Hoppe wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree. I'm very comfortable with basic finder commands in particular; >>>>>>> have caught myself trying to use them on the PC >>>>>>> recently. Even the mail commands are fairly intuitive once you memorize >>>>>>> them, which usually isn't a problem for me. I just >>>>>>> can't get genuinely comfortable with any of the word processing options >>>>>>> for the mac, and there are a lot of instances where >>>>>>> things just seem more complicated than they have to be: for example, I >>>>>>> don't always know when interracting is mandatory, and >>>>>>> I've heard some instructions on this list that just seem way too >>>>>>> complex considering the task trying to be accomplished. I >>>>>>> wish I could think of an example, but I do remember 1 thing I read >>>>>>> recently where there were 4-5 steps, including >>>>>>> interracting several times, and I just thought to myself that whatever >>>>>>> the task was isn't nearly so complicated to do under >>>>>>> windows. Still, I am to the point where I try to boot up the mac at >>>>>>> least a few times a week, but unless I can find a better >>>>>>> word processor, some audio games and/or a mud client that actually >>>>>>> works, I don't ever see myself abandoning the PC. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth Humphreys >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2011 8:41 AM >>>>>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mac feel natural >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I would agree with the general sentiment that you need to just use your >>>>>>> mac for a while. I have only had my Mac for a couple >>>>>>> of months but I have used it everyday. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I feel relatively comfortable on the Mac. I wouldn't agree that you >>>>>>> need to stop using Windows completely. I have been using >>>>>>> Windows XP at work everyday as well and also I've been using Windows 7 >>>>>>> and Vista at home as well. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I think the important thing is to use the Mac regularly. It is just >>>>>>> practice and to a degree muscle memory. There are >>>>>>> obviously lots of factors but one major component of feeling >>>>>>> comfortable is simply knowing what keystroke to press without >>>>>>> having to think about it. The simple fact is that the required >>>>>>> keystroke to achieve something on a Mac is likely to be more >>>>>>> complicated then it would be on a Windows machine. I don't mean that it >>>>>>> is necessarily less intuitive I just mean that it is >>>>>>> likely to involve more keys and so maybe harder to remember. >>>>>>> When it comes time for me to send this message for example I won't have >>>>>>> to think through what the key stroke is. I have used >>>>>>> the mac mail app enough that it is second nature to hit Cmd+Shift+D. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> In short, like others have said practise. If you have to put your >>>>>>> Windows machine out of reach for while to force yourself >>>>>>> then sure, why not. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For me personally the thing I have loved most about using my mac is the >>>>>>> physical hardware it's self. The MBA is truly a >>>>>>> lovely machine. I like using Lion and VO but for somethings it is just >>>>>>> no replacement for an up-to-date windows machine. Word >>>>>>> with JAWS or even NVDA is far better then Pages and VO in my opinion. >>>>>>> And I would be really happy if I never had to hear busy >>>>>>> busy busy busy again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> NVDA is becoming or should I say has become a first class screen reader >>>>>>> and it is free. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I do love my Mac but Windows is also an excellent OS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Garth >>>>>>> >>>>>>> twitter.com/blindtechmusing >>>>>>> >>>>>>> , >>>>>>> On 24/11/2011, at 7:50 PM, Krister Ekstrom wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi, >>>>>>>> I have been using the Mac since 2008 and am never ever ever ever going >>>>>>>> to go back to windblows again. It took me a weekend >>>>>>> to set it up and once done, i left windblows behind and have never >>>>>>> looked back since. Ok, i've got a vm with XP and one with >>>>>>> 7 in it, just to see what i'm not missing. The only things i use >>>>>>> windblows for nowadays is playing audio games. Let's hope >>>>>>> there'll be mac versions of them too so i finally can ditch windblows >>>>>>> alltogether. >>>>>>>> I can only agree with what others have said here, use the mac as much >>>>>>>> as possible, especially when you learn it. That will >>>>>>> make the experience easier. >>>>>>>> /Krister >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 24 nov 2011 kl. 03:16 skrev Mary: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Traci, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> the way I did it was to force myself to do everything I needed to do >>>>>>>>> on the Mac and stay away from Windows. No matter how >>>>>>> tempting it was, I didn't allow myself to use Windows at all While I >>>>>>> was learning to use the Mac. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mary >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 23, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Paul Mimms wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Most of us are more comfortable with what we have become familiar >>>>>>>>>> with using, therefore what is easier. You may find you >>>>>>> just need to stop making the decision whether to use the MacBook or the >>>>>>> PC and remove the PC from consideration. Make the >>>>>>> MacBook the only computer you use and make it work for you just as you >>>>>>> did with the PC at one time. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 11/23/2011 10:19 AM, Traci wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Hi all, >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> What is your advice on making the Mac experience feel natural? I'm >>>>>>>>>>> loving my Macbook Air, but I'm noticing I don't >>>>>>> naturally go to it. I'm still using my ancient windows laptop most of >>>>>>> the time. It can be 3 or 4 days, and I think I really >>>>>>> should go on my Mac. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> :) I guess I want to get to the point, where it is odd to pick up >>>>>>>>>>> the windows laptop. Any good suggestions? How long >>>>>>> did it take you before the Mac felt second nature? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thanks, >>>>>>>>>>> Traci >>>>>>>>>>> Sent by Macbook Air Mail >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Yes, the glass is half full, but I'm not finished filling it! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this 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