I thought this thread is closed?
On Thu, 2 Apr 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:
Maurice: OK, I do understand. Let me just add that if you can't afford $200-$400 for a second machine, you also can't afford VMware, imo. That isn't free software. Best, Janina maurice mines writes:Good morning, unfortunately there were many reasons in my world where Windows must stay. And unfortunately it cannot be moved and no I don’t have money to buy another machine. First reason vocational rehabilitation does in fact these days in the US strongly encourage if not require people to have Windows. That is the path to employment. Slowly but surely folk rehab and Social Security are now on the same page. One must really be working towards employment. Unemployment beats a check. I would love to take my Windows section on my hard drive and virtualize it. Except for this big issue, amateur radio handheld radio software. It does all Windows based. Amateur radio manufacturers also note that Windows is what they believe 98% of all amateur radio operators in the US run. As well as a significant amount of overseas operators. In other words I sell that to say this the industry is Windows-based and is likely to be so indefinitely. Accessibility. Braille displays unless much as changed are really usable in Lenox especially if your display is Bluetooth. Finally the above issues with VMware and the fact that one must take the entire boot camp area of the hard drive, and copy those contents to your existing OS X partition in order to virtualize that is a big barrier if you have a hard drive that is not huge. In other words I only have 256 gig available to me. Perhaps in the new Mac that will happen probably before the end of this calendar year. I’m hoping to upgrade to a 512 or even 1 TB drive. At that point virtualizing Windows will be easier, and then I will see how many trade-offs I must make in order to make it work. So here’s hoping that the future for me is brighter when it comes to computer hardware. In closing let me speak to the ability to afford a second machine. Because I am now deaf blind and I wasn’t three years ago. I am unfortunately a student again. Unfortunately this is not by choice. But by medical necessity. And quality of life. In other words this is the way life is going to be for me there is no changing it. Yes I can go get a curricular implant but I want to wait until that becomes medically necessary. Not a cosmetic surgery. Hope this helps. And for those on the list please excuse the length of this post and how detailed this post is. But I figured this was the best way to respond and also educate. Being deaf blind is certainly not what popular culture might equate me to the large figure in history Helen Keller. There was no technology in the late 19th and early 20 centuries. Today there is technology that can someone equal playing field. Here’s hoping that this improves. Please note my portion of this email has been dictated to the machine by means of dictation software. The software is only been used for the dictation of Britain text not typed commands. If there’s something you don’t understand, please ask me what my original intent was, I will do my very best to clear up any misunderstandings. Thank you for reading this. Note number two I’m including my official signature here just because it’s the easiest to go to the fine. My views that I’ve expressed in my written portion of this email are mine alone they do not reflect the views currently held by the board of the national Federation of the blind deaf blind dictation of which I am a member of. I look forward to hearing/reading any comments and/or suggestions that persons who read this may have. I can answer most questions. And the ones that I can’t answer I will go find the answer to. Amateur callsign kd0iko. Maurice Mines, Board Member National Federation of the Blind Deaf-Blind Division Email: boa...@nfbdeaf-blind.org <mailto:boa...@nfbdeaf-blind.org> Website: www.nfbdeaf-blind.org <http://www.nfbdeaf-blind.org> Live the life you want. The National Federation of the Blind Deaf-Blind Division, a proud division of the National Federation of the Blind, is a community of members and friends who believe in the hopes and dreams of the nation's blind. Every day we work together to help blind people live the lives they want.On Mar 31, 2020, at 02:20, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: Well, Maurice. You can't. You can only use your boot camp option for one OS, and I didn't know you were already using your bootcamp option for Windows. Don't think you said that before. Honestly, you'll be better off saving up some money for a separate Linux machine. Sorry to say that, but virtual machines are fussy things. Besides, VMware is always asking for money. Like every 6-9 months or so they push you to buy yet another upgrade. You can, of course, try to ignore them, but they don't make that easy. And, if I understand, you're trying to run your systems via voice command these days? Not sure how well that's going to work with a vm. Best, Janina maurice mines writes:I downloaded the talking Arch linux. How due put in to boot camp ms windows is already in bootcamp. Your friend Maurice Mines. Ps please forgive my bad spelling I am not using Dragon to write this email.On Mar 30, 2020, at 18:18, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: Hi, Maurice: VoiceOver won't speak your Linux in a vm. For that you'll want either good old Speakup or the newer Fenrir. Beyond that it's really a question of where you'll be most comfortable. Lots of blind folks are using both thos distributions. If it matters I can tell you I'm not very good at setting up Ubuntu these days. Arch I have and use all the time. If you want a dual boot situation, you can install Linux inside a bootcamp. Have you considered that? Best, Janina maurice mines writes:Hi Unita, interesting take on the mailer situation and/or fix, did you ever get my message about which distribution makes the best sense to run on a virtual machine on the same computer as I only have one computer. And one note taker. I’m trying to decide between Ubuntu 19, or the talking arched Lennix distribution that I downloaded. The issue with Ubuntu is getting some kind of software speech out of it. Since I certainly cannot rely on VoiceOver, or is there a way to make this work? Sincerely Maurice Mines.On Mar 29, 2020, at 22:23, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: Andrew: I will attempt my own answer to your questions. Karen will likely have her own answer for you. I'm unaccustomed to hearing that term applied to a machine running a Linux as it's one and only OS; however, it is true that you can do a lot from the Linux CLI. Looking at the items in your list one by one: email Absolutely. Current best choice, imo, would be mutt for your user agent. That's what I'm using write now to write this email to you. You can run your complete email solution, in fact. You'll notice my emails don't come from some third party, but rather from my own personal domain, rednote.net, where I accept emails from the Internet and send out via the Internet. I happen to use an application called sendmail as my MTA, my "mail transfer agent." Were I starting from scratch today, I'd probably rather go with postfix than sendmail. Web browser I still use lynx all the time. However, there's much it can't do today for which a graphical-based browser is essential. So the answer here is, "no." document creation Absolutely yes. You will soon need to decide whether you're a vim or an emacs kind of person. Those are the two top choices for character based editing tools on the cli. There are a few others, but you really want to settle one one or the other of these. The choice between these two is very much about personal preference. Ask for advice and you risk retriggering the oldest flame war in starnixland: i.e. star nix for *nix meaning all the various flavors of unix like systems including Linux, and including the BSD on which Apple is based. You'll also use tools like pandoc and markdown. Your senior level thesis will be written in latex, which you can then use for the remainder of your days. PS: I am also my own phone company via my Linux server. Yet another story for another day. Best, Janina 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes:I’m going to show my utter ignorance. What do you mean by virgin only linux machine? I don’t lack education but in computers/operating systems, I’m a baby so I need little steps. So do you mean pure Linux? And does this exist? Can we therefore run email, web browser, document creation like in an office suite only from command line? I’d like to think that and would happily work hard to attempt to learn. Is this what’s meant? AndrewOn 29 Mar 2020, at 19:07, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: If I follow, that would not be the case if one created a virgin Linux only machine though correct? having never been a windows user, I was simply wondering if one could use the Linux command line platform in its entirety, but it seems that is not the case. These days even DOS has Links the chain. And as you did not include elinks I am guessing that browser tool is no longer an option? Kare On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:Karen: It would be the same as you're already familiar with from other Linux situations. It's just the plain old Linux console, so the two likely options are lynx the cat or links the chain. Of course, you still have the option to Alt-TAB your way to the Windows desktop for Chrome, Firefox, or Edge. Best, Janina Karen Lewellen writes:Enjoying this exchange. I am wondering what browsers are used in either this command line environment, or the one you illustrated for Andrew? On Sun, 29 Mar 2020, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries wrote:Hi, Simon: Yes, but not the graphical desktop of Ubuntu, and not the audio device drivers either. Just the command line environment. Learn more here: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/install-win10 Note I haven't tried this under bootcamp, though I'd expect it to work. Note also that I choose my words above carefully. It strikes me that many people don't grok the import of command line interface only. Perhaps it's because the Terminal application available in the OS X Utilities folder seems such an afterthought to many people--like--what a boring utility, why would I ever want it? Well, it's the whole ballgame of the Microsoft Substem for Linux, and it's a powerful and major part of Linux (and really all starnix) environments. That's where the power users hang out, not in the point and click environments. Best, Janina Simon A Fogarty writes:Hang on what? Ubuntu will install in to windows ? That would be great if it didn't screw up my windows install How do I do this and is it something you would recommend for someone who really hasn't touched linux in years? -----Original Message----- From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sunday, 29 March 2020 12:00 AM To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list Hi, Simon: I believe Ubuntu installations are still very accessible, but I don't know that for a fact. I'd be surprised if they weren't, but I just don't actually know. The nice thing about trying installations is that you lose nothing by trying. The virgin environment is one you can quite comfortably blow up and start over on without losing a thing. In fact, it's a way to gain knowledge. Unhappy with the choices you made installing? No problem, start over. You lose nothing. It's not as if you had years of files, email, music, and what not on that machine, to say nothing of carefully crafted configuration files. Ubuntu is what I run on my Windows machine. Yes, Microsoft is now supporting running Linux virtual machines inside Windows, and the best supported of them is Ubuntu. Kind of fun using NVDA with a Ubuntu shell to ssh into my Linux server. Works well these days now that someone fixed NVDA focus in the terminal. Ubuntu and Debian are related in that they both use similar device and application management, eg., you use apt to install or remove software. Here's an example to install mplayer: On Debian and Ubuntu: apt-get install mplayer On Arch (which uses pacman): pacman -S mplayer Or, more likely one of the front ends for pacman, like yay: yay -S mplayer On Fedora: dnf install mplayer The above illustrates why the power user of one kind of Linux might not be all that helpful with a different flavor of Linux. Yes, the basic bash (or zsh) commands are the same as on the Apple terminal, but configuration, software management, and such is as different among Linux flavors as on Mac (where the terminal is essentially BSD Unix). hth Janina Simon A Fogarty writes:Hi Janina, Your knowledge and expertise has got me interested, What about ubuntu these days? -----Original Message----- From: 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> Sent: Friday, 27 March 2020 6:55 PM To: 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: OT: anybody on the list using Linux in VMWare or on a separate machine? Pls answer off list OK, Andrew, I understand your situation. I'll give you my advice. But, as you've undoubtedly already learned, advice is cheap and various people will be passionate about their views. So, let me give you a first things first approach as my top suggestion. Keep it simple, and keep the main thing the main thing. Linux is a "some assembly" required kind of environment. If you break it, you get to keep both pieces. So, forget vmware or any other virtualization. Not because they're unworthy, they're perfect for their task, but they're complicating factors that will only frustrate you. After you have experience and some knowledge, you can always go back there. But learning linux management under some vm isn't the next thing, it's getting a unfctioning linux in the first place. I can't stress this point enough. That seems to leave us with a 13 year old laptop. Forget about running Orca or any graphical Linux desktop on 13 year old hardware. It ain't happening--not with your level of Linux skills (no offense intended). Could I, with my decades of Linux experience get an accessible desktop working on that machine? Maybe, but not very likely. So, a word to the wise, and all that. You can expect to run the text console environment, though, and that's where the real power and attractiveness of Linux resides, actually. Yes, Orca is cool and leads in some compelling feature developments. But, Mac and Windows are far more accessible, imo. So, if you're uninterested in learning bash (or zsh) console based computing, you probably want another project. However, if you're still on board, take heart. You have options, and you should be able to make Linux talk and drive your braille display with multiple console instances on each boot that you can readily switch among. Now, getting an installation becomes the problem. At this point I again remind you to keep it simple. Forget wifi. You configure that once the machine is booting reliably, not as a condition of installation. Plan to connect an ethernet cable where you can avoid driver issues. The main thing, remember? Forget Fedora. It's a powerful Linux distribution and it powers my Linux vps. I'm sending you this email via my Fedora server in the cloud. But the installation isn't accessible, so forget it. It just came off your list--and never mind that someone on some list said they figured out how to install Fedora with Orca. That ain't you. We're keeping it simple and keeping the main thing the main thing, right? Fedora is wonderful to use, but you can't use it if you can't install it in our current scenario, so you're going to forget it--at least for now. Debian is good. It has a cadre of true believers that wouldn't have anything else. Only criticism with Debian is that it's arguably too conversative, i.e. what you get tends to be older, more user tested versions of kernels and applications. I do believe it's installation remains quite accessible, though I don't know the particulars. I'd google for that info, and also see my additional resources item below. Arch is what I run on my personal machines. There's an accessible Arch installer here: https://tarch.org/ Note there's a fundamental philosophical distinction between Linux distros like Fedora and Debian which "snapshot" into releases from time to time on the one hand, and distros like Arch which never have releases but rather practice rolling updates day by day and hour by hour on the other hand. You can also forget vinux and sonar. As you've discovered, they're dead. There are newer replacements both actively maintained and in process of development with varying stages of maturity. I have no direct experience, so I won't say anything more than to note that the community continues to spin up distributions of Linux aimed at making the process easier for newbies. Years ago, I was personally involved in such a project myself. Lastly, you need to be on the lists with people who focus on Linux as blind users. Chief of these is the blinux list: https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/blinux-list Note you can find additional resources on the Tarch page noted above. Remember, you're offering up 13-year old hardware for your Linux, so your goal is console only. In that environment you'll have Speakup and/or Fenrir for screen readers, and brltty for your braille display. Those will be your main choices whether you go Debian, Arch, or something else. And, you'll be using these either on bash or zsh sells. Or, you may decide to learn emacs and emacspeak--but that's yet another kettle of fish that comes well after getting a function, accessible system working. Good luck! Best, Janina 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes:Hello, A few years ago I had a go at trying to learn Linux but I failed and gave it up. I never quite parted with the idea of ever returning to it. So firstly I’d like to find out what distro I could most reliably install in VMWare Fusion or on an old Del laptop from 2007 I think, and whether I could accomplish it without sighted help. I’ve been doing a lot of research on it over the last few days given I have lost my work due to coronavirus and am having to stay at home. When researching the accessibility of Linux, some say Fedora is better, others recommend Vinux or Sonar but both Vinux and Sonar have folded and have not been updated although some pages are still on the web. Debian is supposed to be accessible and I tried the last distro but while I was able to start the installation after having burnt the .iso to cd with sighted help, the installation failed because I was unable to connect it to my wifi: Linux wasn’t finding the name of my wifi at home - something wrong maybe with drivers , goodness knows. Debian is supposed to have Orca and Braille support. So yes, if I could successfully install and run a Linux distro with orca and Braille, I’d like to have a go at learning Linux. It’s a tantalizing prospect given linux reputation for stability and safety. But I’m rather inexperienced in terminal or command line so maybe I will fail again. Still, nothing ventured, nothing gained. So if I could find out a bit on which distro might be best for me, and perhaps some contacts off the list to ask question, or even if a proficient linux user who’s blind has the time and would be willing at some point to give paid tutorials on Linux, I’d certainly feel more secure in this venture. Linux requires a whole new vocabulary whose terms I’m trying to understand. AndrewOn 26 Mar 2020, at 06:33, 'Janina Sajka' via MacVisionaries <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> wrote: Several of us on this list are long time Linux users. What are you looking for? 'Andrew Lamanche' via MacVisionaries writes:Hi, Does anybody on the list use Linux successfully either in virtual environment or on a separate computer? Please email off list if you wouldn’t mind sharing your experiences. Andrew -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/38661F63-4E5B-40E4-9346-5DA572E2FDC6%40me.com.-- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. 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You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/SYCPR01MB404873E747E4E41B3C3012DF8ACD0%40SYCPR01MB4048.ausprd01.prod.outlook.com.-- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. 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You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/2CC4EBC7-AD6D-474C-9C0F-6EC08AC65CCF%40me.com.-- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. 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If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/61127D5F-5748-40E0-8619-0AC21E1BC3A7%40maurice-amines.com.-- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200331011804.GX2206%40rednote.net.-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/CFB217F7-81CB-4A79-B6BC-B4CF445AAF63%40maurice-amines.com.-- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200331092016.GY2206%40rednote.net.-- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/586E1D0B-4482-4B44-8B33-D296609F54B8%40maurice-amines.com.-- Janina Sajka Linux Foundation Fellow Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI) Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures http://www.w3.org/wai/apa -- The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries list. If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself. Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor. You can reach mark at: mk...@ucla.edu and your owner is Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com The archives for this list can be searched at: http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/ --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/macvisionaries/20200402084510.GD2206%40rednote.net.
