The darnedest thing about Spaces, though, is that it is little more than having multiple UNIX-like desktops which is a really obvious task on every GNU/Linux distro out there and one would think that having UNIX in its bowels that Apple would have gotten this for free or at least a low cost. On Dec 2, 2009, at 2:44 PM, James & Nash wrote:
> Hi Chris, > > You wrote: >> Spaces is far from obvious with VO) > > This is because Spaces is conceptually broken. You can't imagine the times > I've E-Mailed Apple trying to explain why this is and waht an excellent > feature this would be if it only worked as it should. > > TC > > James > On 2 Dec 2009, at 19:35, Chris Hofstader wrote: > >> I actually think VO provides much better support for the stuff that ships >> installed on a Macintosh than JAWS does with a lot of the Windows stuff. VO >> may miss a few things (I find TimeMachine restores pretty hard to use with >> VO and Spaces is far from obvious with VO) but JAWS still doesn't work with >> the built-in dictation program and misses a whole lot of stuff in a lot of >> Windows utilities - sure, an expert user can get at stuff using the JAWS >> Cursor and by writing scripts but, out-of-the-box, VO gets far more of the >> basic Macintosh stuff right than JAWS does with Windows. >> >> Also, the Trackpad Commander provides a wholly new and very exciting way for >> a blind user to navigate that, when people get used to it, will improve >> efficiency enormously while JAWS remains in the unidimensional world of a >> long list of semantic blips. >> >> cdh >> cdh >> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:34 PM, Scott Howell wrote: >> >>> And that is your opinion as well and I completely disagree with you. >>> However, you as I are entitled to your opinion and having used both windows >>> and the Mac on a regular basis, I find that there are many tasks, which are >>> much easier to perform with VOiceOver than Window-Eyes. I have never used >>> JAWS and of course at this point I wouldn't bother since I'm not interested >>> in learning something new since I can do what I need with what I got. >>> However, with the quick-nav feature of VO, I have found it takes less >>> keystrokes then before. You can argue that interacting is perhaps one issue >>> and with a windows=based screen reader that may be true depending on the >>> screen reader, but at the same time I don't have the multitude of issues >>> with VO as I do with WE when dealing with MSAA. >>> It's obvious JAWS is your preference and honestly that's fine. What matters >>> in the end regardless of whether we agree or not is that you have the tools >>> to get the job done. That is one point I think we can both agree on. >>> >>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 1:23 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>> >>>> No, screen readers can be judged subjectively independent of the OS they >>>> are >>>> used for. For example, a subjective measurement might be a count of the >>>> number of keystrokes it takes to complete certain tasks. Also, consistency >>>> can be a subjective measurment. Does the same keystroke move from one >>>> input >>>> field to the next? And finally, you can get an idea of the percentage of >>>> inaccessible controls in operating system applications. In fact, you could >>>> even include accessibility of third party applications even if you have to >>>> download add-ons to make them accessible. After all, who cares where the >>>> accessibility features come from as long as they work? >>>> >>>> Anyway, I'm not necessarily saying that my opinion is right. But your >>>> contention that its impossible to compare jaws and voiceover is incorrect. >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: "Scott Howell" <scottn3...@gmail.com> >>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>> Sent: Tuesday, December 01, 2009 5:19 PM >>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>> >>>> >>>> John, I think that is a very unfair statement. To say that VoiceOver is >>>> not >>>> up to the standard set by JAWS is inaccurate. That is like comparing >>>> windows >>>> and the Mac OS. Sure, they both are operating systems, but they are very >>>> different and that holds true with VoiceOver as compared to JAWS, >>>> Window-Eyes, and any screen reader running on windows or Linux for that >>>> matter. They are all screen readers, like windows or SL share some >>>> similarities, but VoiceOver and JAWS for windows are very different. >>>> Therefore, the supposed standards of JAWS do not apply to VOiceOver and >>>> therefore renders your statement inaccurate. >>>> On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:10 PM, John G. Heim wrote: >>>> >>>>> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to narrator >>>>> that >>>>> would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But the National >>>>> Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The reasoning was that if >>>>> Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive Freedom Scientific and GW >>>>> Micro >>>>> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the quality >>>>> of >>>>> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive those >>>>> products out of the market. >>>>> >>>>> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I argued >>>>> that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once too crummy >>>>> to >>>>> be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS and GWM out of >>>>> business. I didn't anticipate the development of the other free screen >>>>> readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, that's another point >>>>> against the NFB position. >>>>> >>>>> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or nvda >>>>> full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws yet. >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: "Lynn Schneider" <canepri...@gmail.com> >>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >>>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will never >>>>> forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able to just turn >>>>> the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. Microsoft is not to blame >>>>> for not having default Windows access out of the box, blind people are to >>>>> blame. As Mark said, thinking outside the box can get you into hot water. >>>>> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic >>>>> mistake >>>>> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible out of >>>>> the >>>>> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of blind >>>>> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was ungrateful for >>>>> all >>>>> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. etc. >>>>> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire for >>>>> simply >>>>> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted peers >>>>> take >>>>> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, being >>>>> on >>>>> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I feel at >>>>> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see the >>>>> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind people >>>>> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They are >>>>> the >>>>> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone or >>>>> iPod >>>>> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >>>>> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap now, >>>>> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built right >>>>> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word far and >>>>> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their products and >>>>> make them an example of what can be. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>>>>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>>>>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>>>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>>>>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>>>>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>>>>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>>>>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>>>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>>>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>>>>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>>>>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>>>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>>>>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>>>>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>>>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>>>>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>>>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>>>>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>>>>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>>>>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>>>>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>>>>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>>>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>>>>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>>>>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>>>>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>>>>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>>>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>>>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>>>>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>>>>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>>>>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>>>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>>>>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>>>>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>>>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and to >>>>>>> a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>>>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>>>>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>>>>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>>>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>>>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>>>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>>>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>>>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>>>>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>>>>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>>>>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>>>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>>>>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>>>>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>>>>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy >>>>>>> and asking them if JFW works. We probably make up less than 10% of >>>>>>> the population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>>>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. Again >>>>>>> don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but we all >>>>>>> know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody >>>>>>> necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent because I need >>>>>>> assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go >>>>>>> where I need to go etc. A good organization helps people become >>>>>>> independent. I agree that whenever possible, we should do for >>>>>>> ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other things >>>>>>>> and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, and the >>>>>>>> disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject line >>>>>>>> from what was originally intended, and I apologize for that, but I >>>>>>>> will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in favor of >>>>>>>> universal design so that blind people can walk into any store and >>>>>>>> purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we not be >>>>>>>> forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our stuff. I >>>>>>>> guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the reasons I stated >>>>>>>> above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>> in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was hired >>>>>>>> for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I could >>>>>>>> get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had graphics >>>>>>>> for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of dollars >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work for >>>>>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past regarding >>>>>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with certainty >>>>>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of these >>>>>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, including >>>>>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, face >>>>>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our own to >>>>>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. I've >>>>>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission last >>>>>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they do >>>>>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to much, but >>>>>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school system in >>>>>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>>>>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>> an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from state >>>>>>>>> agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with any >>>>>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course and I >>>>>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>>>>> dorm, >>>>>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly refused to >>>>>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to go to >>>>>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when it >>>>>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me out of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with tech. >>>>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>>>> hopefully >>>>>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the abolition >>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and tend >>>>>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do realize >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those born >>>>>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>>>>> high- >>>>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, in the >>>>>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility teacher >>>>>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the immediate >>>>>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I and my >>>>>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more so; >>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the loss. :) I >>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than in the >>>>>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am about >>>>>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, which >>>>>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even now >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the system(s) >>>>>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there you >>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>> then. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>>>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups 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