I can totally agree with what you are saying. I think all companies should work to make products more accessible. There are reasons why that can't happen with Android but I believe they should be pushed as hard. I believe in choices in all products.
I was not referring to Mark driving a car around a track even though he mentioned it in his blog.I was referring to the Google car because I believe that has more potential for becoming reality while driving a car around a race track is a gimmick. I have heard Mark talk and I believe he will make some changes. I don't know what they will be but I believe change will happen. I hope so. On 7/13/14, Littlefield, Tyler <ty...@tysdomain.com> wrote: > marianne, > Perhaps this should be off list, but I want to voice it here. I'm not > directly attacking NFB, but I'm attacking what I've seen and how I feel > about what's happening. > > Firstly, the resolution caught me off guard. While mark is the new > president, he was pretty much appointed by Dr. Maurer for the position. > I really doubt that Maurer would appoint someone who had differing views > from himself; in many cases, Mark and him agreed and spoke. I think it's > pretty clear which direction he will go with all of this. > > Firstly, though this is somewhat irrelivant, I'm always amused at how > this self-driving car keeps getting used again and again. Many blind > people have driven in the past. No, it wasn't on a busy road, but I've > driven a motor cycle, four wheeler, truck etc, both in a field and on a > gravel road. This idea that he drove a car around a track is cool and > slightly different, but it's referenced again and again, as if it lends > credence to the claims that are presented in the article. > > My problem with this entire situation boils down to exactly three points: > 1) I do not believe any organization should be able to speak for its' > members when the members can speak for themselves. The NFB has a lot of > power and makes stuff happen, and to a lesser extent so does ACB. But by > no means should any one organization be permitted to bully another > company into using guidelines that it deems necessary. Sure, maybe the > members voted, but what does that mean? They voted for more > accessibility and for the knowledge that an app won't somehow break when > they update, which I can get behind and which I've made suggestions on > how to handle. we should by no means force anyone to comply with > guidelines in this area. Apple needs to keep its' main customer base in > mind as well while doing this. Sure, things should be made accessible, > but it should be done in such a way that it does not hinder developers > overall and does not change the user experience for everyone else using > these devices. > 2) The post was extremeley open-ended: it said not "all" apps can be > made accessible, but then went on to say that there were no limitations. > Basically I took that to mean, "We'll push them as hard as we can and > make them do everything we want until they finally stop." > 3) This isn't aimed at everyone, but mainly apple. Google and Microsoft > have the ability to make accessibility better. This should be something > that affects all platforms, not just a specific platform. If Apple > should be forced to enforce accessibility requirements on its' apps, > then so should Google and everyone else who provides tablet services. > > While I understand the point of this organization is advocacy, there's a > point at which advocacy becomes bullying. NFB is great at knowing > trigger words and playing PR to get what they want. > On 7/13/2014 11:09 PM, Marianne Denning wrote: >> If you will check out the website of NFB you will see two trainings >> this fall that address trainings. >> >> I certainly don't always agree with NFB or ACB and no organization >> speaks for all of its members. Women's organizations don't represent >> all women... The resolution passed represents the beliefs of the >> membership of NFB. ACB has the same process. Why isn't anyone >> picking on ACB? >> >> On 7/13/14, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> wrote: >>> And i must add again, why is it the place of the nfb to presume that >>> their >>> working with apple or anyone else translates into some sort of uniform >>> equal for speaking for every person who experiences sight loss? >>> why should they presume this right, this voice over say the very wise >>> individuals on this list. More voice than individuals who use >>> apple products but have no use for any consumer organization. >>> someone said before more progress is made in a group, a group of what >>> exactly? >>> speaking only for myself, it is often the very suggestion that one >>> body >>> represents the thinking of a whole population that fortifies >>> limitations >>> and stereotypes. >>> Given how long NFB has existed, that they still generate so much >>> negativity >>> >>> says a great deal about how they have managed their so called power. >>> If they wish to contribute to applications, then spend money training >>> program developers. >>> Equally, since Google has so much reach, and so little direct connection >>> with its market, why not include them...unless of course as suggested >>> the >>> nfb wants to pressure Apple into something they want, regardless of the >>> unique interests of Apple's many many customers. >>> Perhaps they wish to stay on Google's good side for the self driving >>> car? >>> >>> Kare >>> >>> On Mon, 14 Jul 2014, Joanne Chua wrote: >>> >>>> It is still doesn't discount the fact that NFB is picking Apple from >>>> the rest o the bunsh. If NFB is so interested in promoting >>>> accessibility across all platform, why not Microsoft? Why not Google? >>>> Why target purely at Apple? >>>> >>>> So, yes, is that a punishment for Apple from NFB because Apple has >>>> been doing so much for the blind community? Or, is that because NFB >>>> got some other deals with some other company, like Microsoft or >>>> Freedom Scientific that may favouring them financially by >>>> promoting/selling their products, so, is okay to target the single >>>> company that they might not able to gain something from? >>>> >>>> If NFB is really looking at the interest of blind people, and their >>>> family, won't it be more useful to target other company like Google, >>>> with their less than desirable Androy platform than with Apple? >>>> >>>> My point still stand, why single out and targeting a company, when >>>> there are numbers of company that doesn't do as well as Apple. >>>> >>>> Also, i think NFB have no rights to be the big man, to say, "oh, >>>> because we do this, look now, we are doing the world hell lots of >>>> favour for the blind." They have no rights, and shouldn't be givin >>>> such rights as well. >>>> >>>> I'm sure VO happen is not because some NFB big guy went to make deals >>>> with Apple, and make Apple have that sense of responsibility to have >>>> VO available on their products. If NFB is that influencial in the >>>> globally, the "world" will be much more accessible than what it is >>>> now. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 14/07/2014, Marianne Denning <maria...@denningweb.com> wrote: >>>>> You do bring up an interesting point. I don't think your analogy is >>>>> too good but Apple is doing a great job. I don't believe NFB is >>>>> punishing Apple. According to what I read, NFB is trying to work with >>>>> Apple to increase the number of accessible apps. One example is the >>>>> Microsoft suite of products. There may be times when we need to or >>>>> want to use a Microsoft product on the Mac but cannot since Microsoft >>>>> doesn't have an accessible app. Apple puts the information out there >>>>> on how to make apps voiceover friendly and many companies don't want >>>>> to or don't understand the importance of voiceover accessibility. The >>>>> president of NFB wants to work with Apple. He is not against Apple >>>>> products in any way and is pleased with their level of commitment. >>>>> Does that mean we need to be happy with what we have even though there >>>>> are still many apps that are not accessible? If it improves >>>>> accessibility to voiceover users in the U.S., it is accessible to >>>>> voiceover users around the world. Please read the blog he posted on >>>>> this subject. >>>>> >>>>> If you don't know anything about NFB or ACB, they are both >>>>> organizations of blind people and their families. They want to >>>>> promote independence for people who are blind and visually impaired. >>>>> Both organizations take positions I don't agree with but when we work >>>>> together as a group it improves independence for all blind and >>>>> visually impaired people. I hope there are similar organizations in >>>>> other countries. >>>>> >>>>> On 7/13/14, Joanne Chua <shuang.an...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> So Erik, what you are saying is that, when your kid performing very, >>>>>> very well at school, always gets 90 points in every exams, while >>>>>> the rest is hobbing around 30 points, rarely pass the test, is okay >>>>>> for the school principle to point your kid out in public, and punish >>>>>> your kid by asking him to perform 100% better, and is okay for the >>>>>> rest of the school kids staying behind on 30 points mark? >>>>>> >>>>>> Or, we got double standard because its NFB, and because its Apple, >>>>>> so, >>>>>> hey, who cares about other company, other organization, or even other >>>>>> blind people that is not even in America, but could pretty well >>>>>> effect >>>>>> by what so call big brother NFB does or doesn't in their policy >>>>>> making >>>>>> process? >>>>>> >>>>>> Jees, if i'm one of the school kid, i'm very happy to stay on 30% >>>>>> points mark, and not performing well, because, look what happen when >>>>>> you are on 90%? you got name, you got shame, you got single it out. >>>>>> >>>>>> I wonder, is this the pressure and the fear from other company, say >>>>>> Freedom Scientific to NFB. When Apple products weren't accessible, >>>>>> people rely on conventional screen reader, conventional braille note >>>>>> taker to have a life. But now, because of Apple, thanks for Apple, >>>>>> blind people have this sudden choice, not rely on an external screen >>>>>> reader, and still able to have a life, a well inform life, a better >>>>>> life than ever before in the history. Which also means, blind people >>>>>> are more than likely to rely on their own, starting to do self >>>>>> advocacy more than ever before, and left those organizations like NFB >>>>>> behind in the future. >>>>>> >>>>>> On 14/07/2014, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote: >>>>>>> Naming a company does not necessarily imply targeting them. There >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> sound >>>>>>> economic reasons for starting with apple. >>>>>>> 1, they are the lear in the field of mobile accessibility right now. >>>>>>> Lots >>>>>>> of players, only one leader, ...apple, a p p l e. >>>>>>> 2, Apple products are used daily in classrooms from at least grade >>>>>>> two >>>>>>> right >>>>>>> through university. They are prominat in government. This isn't >>>>>>> true >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> any other company. Blackberry has a lot of government market share >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> nothing in education, and almost nothing in employment. Android may >>>>>>> be >>>>>>> bigger in employment over all than apple, but androide started much >>>>>>> later >>>>>>> than apple and has only one truely comparable accessibility feature >>>>>>> namely >>>>>>> talkback A lot of disabled people who would get an android for work >>>>>>> as >>>>>>> a >>>>>>> matter of course are getting apple because the accessibility suite >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> frankly more robust than that on android. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> OK, I think the discussions should include android. I also think >>>>>>> they >>>>>>> should include disability advocacy groups besides the blind. But I >>>>>>> don't >>>>>>> see any one targeting anyone else here. Past experience >>>>>>> not-with-standing, >>>>>>> this idea that the NFB will somehow bombard apple into enforcing >>>>>>> accessibility standards is ludacris. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh at 5 >>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! Click >>>>>>> here >>>>>>> for >>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 6:12 PM, David Chittenden <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> When a resolution singles out one specific company by name, this >>>>>>>> means >>>>>>>> that one specific company is being targeted! If the resolution was >>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>> multiple companies being approached for increasing accessibility, >>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>> have said so. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 10:03, Marianne Denning >>>>>>>>> <maria...@denningweb.com> >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I also think it makes sense to push the one that is most >>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>> Some of the others make it very clear they just don't care. Apple >>>>>>>>> believes we are a market. Apple, like all other companies, is >>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>> making a profit. >>>>>>>>> We give them our loyalty but ask them to do more. They have >>>>>>>>> chosen >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> tightly control all apps by requiring us to get them from the app >>>>>>>>> store so they need to work to be as accessible as possible. I >>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>> more pressure needs to be put on other companies too so come up >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>> resolution to address that in whatever organization you are active >>>>>>>>> with. We, as individuals, benefit from working together as a >>>>>>>>> group. >>>>>>>>> The viphone list is a great example of working together as a group >>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>> this group has gotten out good information to developers who >>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>> accessible apps. Many members of this group are members of a >>>>>>>>> national >>>>>>>>> organization too so work through that organization to influence >>>>>>>>> companies. >>>>>>>>>> On 7/13/14, erik burggraaf <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> I didn't read anything about targetting in the resolution. Show >>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>> where >>>>>>>>>> that line is please? >>>>>>>>>> Apple has the broadest user base in the access technology market >>>>>>>>>> when >>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>> comes to mobile. Apple is also well recognized in education, >>>>>>>>>> government, >>>>>>>>>> and employment sectors. Samsung is a great accessibility >>>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> see why this resolution shouldn't apply to them except that they >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>> their own app distrobution model. Android is on the rise and has >>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>> good >>>>>>>>>> following and I think this conversation should be taken to them. >>>>>>>>>> In >>>>>>>>>> fact, >>>>>>>>>> so it is. Ensuring that apps offer a minimum level of >>>>>>>>>> accessibility >>>>>>>>>> benefits all disability groups, not just ours. I think its a >>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>> that a >>>>>>>>>> lot of disability organizations should be having with apple and >>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>> eachother. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I don't see apple being targetted here, and I don't see apple >>>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>>> intimidated even if they did feel targetted. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh >>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! >>>>>>>>>> Click >>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> detales. >>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-13, at 3:44 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe it is because the NFB is specifically targeting only the >>>>>>>>>>> company >>>>>>>>>>> that is doing the most for accessibility and ignoring the >>>>>>>>>>> companies >>>>>>>>>>> they >>>>>>>>>>> should be targeting, such as Microsoft, Google, Sony, Panasonic, >>>>>>>>>>> Cisco, >>>>>>>>>>> Sharp, Samsung, and so forth. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> You do not encourage accessibility by targeting the most >>>>>>>>>>> accessible >>>>>>>>>>> company. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 14 Jul 2014, at 4:13, erik burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>>> <e...@erik-burggraaf.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Isn't the very point of the NFB to advocate? IE, make change >>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>> better? IE, make companies like apple do things they wouldn't >>>>>>>>>>>> normally >>>>>>>>>>>> do by the use of resolution, discussion, policy positions and >>>>>>>>>>>> demonstration of the user demand for such change? THe NFB >>>>>>>>>>>> seems >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> be doing what an advocacy organization does. I don't >>>>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>> any >>>>>>>>>>>> one has a problem with this. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Erik Burggraaf >>>>>>>>>>>> The great amazon gift card giveaway begins friday june eleventh >>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>> 5 >>>>>>>>>>>> pm! >>>>>>>>>>>> The more who donate, the more chances there will be to win! >>>>>>>>>>>> Click >>>>>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>>>>> for detales. >>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.fundme.com/en/projects/6287-Orientation-and-mobility-training-for-the-blind >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 2014-07-12, at 11:36 PM, "Littlefield, Tyler" >>>>>>>>>>>> <ty...@tysdomain.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm writing this from a sock-footed perspective, so take that >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>> it's worth... >>>>>>>>>>>>> None of this is "hate" directed at NFB. I don't agree with >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy. I don't believe that one organization should have >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>> to "resolve" to make a company like Apple do anything. This >>>>>>>>>>>>> isn't >>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>> matter of ACB vs NFB or AFB or anything, it's a matter of what >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>> is right. I don't believe that an organization should speak >>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> entire blind population. Further, I don't believe that any >>>>>>>>>>>>> organization >>>>>>>>>>>>> should be so arrogant as to award a company, then expect them >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> show >>>>>>>>>>>>> up, as if it's an honor to receive that award. I don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB thinks it has the right to force this on anyone, much less >>>>>>>>>>>>> why >>>>>>>>>>>>> they're only targetting apple for this. I also don't >>>>>>>>>>>>> understand >>>>>>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>>>>>> they hope to accomplish. Sure there are unaccessible apps out >>>>>>>>>>>>> there, >>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>> that number is dwindling. Advocacy and work with the >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> apps is generally plenty to make people want to make their >>>>>>>>>>>>> applications >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. Not always, but enforcing accessibility guidelines >>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing an entire OS to conform to those guidelines when it >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> probably mean changing the user experience for everyone else >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> also >>>>>>>>>>>>> ludicrous. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> You brought up the 2009 article: why should we thank NFB for >>>>>>>>>>>>> appologising for something they never should have published in >>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>>> place? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure where this will lead. I think that work with >>>>>>>>>>>>> apple >>>>>>>>>>>>> developers and perhaps work under the hood to the native >>>>>>>>>>>>> controls >>>>>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>>>>> make more of a difference. Perhaps developers can choose to >>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>> these >>>>>>>>>>>>> checks enabled, and these checks can insure that specific >>>>>>>>>>>>> labels >>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>> set, etc etc which would generally make the app more >>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> also up to the developer, but it would greatly help I think in >>>>>>>>>>>>> targetting exactly what needs to be done. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 11:15 PM, Ray Foret Jr wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am changing the subject because I think it's high time I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> said >>>>>>>>>>>>>> something. I well remember how many Mac users strongly >>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticized >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB for their June 2009 Braille Monitor article on Voice >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Over. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That >>>>>>>>>>>>>> criticism was fully justified: let there be no doubt about >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the other hand, how many Mac users gave the NFB credit for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> retraction printed in the December 2009 Monitor article? Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> seem to recall. Look, it's your business whether or not you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB and I cannot change your minds about that. I'm not even >>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> try. But, frankly, I think it's very shallow minded to have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>> kind >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of hatred controlling the issue when what we need to do is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> balanced and mature conversation. Hate us all you want: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember, there are NFB members who use Macs and iPHones and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple products too. For what it may be worth, I do not hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> anyone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the ACB. Why should I? They've never done anything to me to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> merit >>>>>>>>>>>>>> such hatred. I would add this. My own state, Louisiana, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> voted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> against >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the resolution at the convention this year. This somewhat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> took >>>>>>>>>>>>>> me >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> surprise. I did not expect that to happen, but it did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Look, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> are NFB members and who use our Apple products love them as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much >>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> do. I know that, for myself, I will never touch windows >>>>>>>>>>>>>> again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sooner be without a computer totally than to do that. I do >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it is at all reasonable to ask the current generation to bear >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hatreds of the past. 1961 is long gone: as the hatred of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> days >>>>>>>>>>>>>> should also be. Condemn what I say if you wish: (That's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> right.): >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, just bear in mind that the only one being effected by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hatred >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of people like me is yourself. I don't hate you. You see, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>> frightfully simple. Those who hate you don't win unless you >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Have what ever feelings you choose towards me and what I say: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> bear in mind that we really need to rise above such things >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> continue >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to help each other with Apple product issues. After all, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the principal purpose of this list? When I first joined, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> received >>>>>>>>>>>>>> much good help from the members of this list. I would hate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> depart >>>>>>>>>>>>>> from this list over feelings of bitterness and hatred with >>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either to the ACB or NFB. No. I cannot change how you feel: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> but, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> frankly, I'd prefer a gentler tone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sincerely, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Constantly Barefooted Ray, Still a very happy Mac and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> iphone >>>>>>>>>>>>>> user! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my Mac, the only computer with full accessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind built-in! >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:57 PM, David Chittenden >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <dchitten...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is probably more like, NFB attempted to dialogue with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffed NFB, like Apple rebuffs any organization doing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> similar. NFB passes a resolution which they can then take >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> back >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple and say, See, the blind are behind us because we are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and this resolution was passed at our convention, so you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to dialogue with us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What will be the result? Apple will again rebuff NFB, just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rebuffs any organization attempting such an approach. NFB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> may >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> well >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> become in-sensed again and we will see some form of tantrum >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As I recall, when Apple did not send an official >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> representative >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> NFB >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> National Convention to receive the awards NFB gave Apple, a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> few >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> months >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> later articles appeared in the Braille Monitor proving how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> horrible >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> VoiceOver was on the Mac. Yes, I suspect NFB will do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idiotic this time when their scheme does not work yet again. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 13 Jul 2014, at 13:57, Tristan <theblinddj...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I feel the need to point out this article: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This gives me a largely new prospective on this; I was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclined >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to agree with everyone's opinions on this at first, but it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> honestly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> looks like they're trying to work with, and not threaten >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> core of the resolution. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If this link has been posted prior, I apologize, but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thought >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'd >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> share. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> While I do think it's an unnecessary step, it does not look >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> slap in the face to apple nor a step backwards. It's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> personally wouldn't care about and probably wouldn't pay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attention >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because I'm comfortable with the way apps are handled on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> both >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iOS. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/14, Karen Lewellen <klewel...@shellworld.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I cannot imagine it being about anything else but nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> getting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exchange for building in limitations. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Granted I make no secret of choosing my own dictionary. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But why on earth in the 21st century is anyone still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshiping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> altar anyway? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So they pass a resolution...and? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The only reason apple feels they must entertain them, is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers do not indicate they have minds imaginations and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interests >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their own. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bunch of people gave this organization power, those same >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who BTW >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have within themselves the ability to write their own >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dictionaries >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blindness and anything else, can tell the nfb they have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> grown >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need for such a body anymore. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I simply do not understand why one conformity is exchanged >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> another, one >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person's ideas of limitations exchanged for those the nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> create >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their mindset. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Littlefield, Tyler wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I fully agree. It really does feel like we're slapping >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> forcing them to conform. I really really hope this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to create a huge mess and totally redefine apps. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everything is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible but that really is fine with me; usually I can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> find >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> app that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is. It's what happens when you use anything, really. My >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mainly >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> money based: how much money will NFB get for consulting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> something like >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this, and secondly how is this trash going to redefine >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apps >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's not going to be all that hard for NFB to use their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> power >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> force >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into IOS/apps that don't need to be there, force things >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 7/12/2014 9:25 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me see if I understand this. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple who has built in innovation on its own must >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> discuss >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to now limit that innovation to fit the nfb's one size >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fits >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> definition >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of blindness? as in all blind people are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interchangeable, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> nfb >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the only source to tell you how to find a plug and play >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> person >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> which you measure what works for them...all 400 plus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> million >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I wonder how much money they plan on extorting for this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not only should it be a blanket resolution, BTW android >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phones >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> most popular in use now according to annual surveys, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dialog >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should involve many organizations, and a group of apple >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> customers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not members of a consumer organization whatsoever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The very suggestion that a single body is in a position >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speak >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> child born of women who happens to have the label blind >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attached >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a stereotypes that really needs to end. otherwise the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> individuality >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is the rich experience of redefining blindness is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> exist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the millions who need not buy the nfb line to live >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> freely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inclusively. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why does the nfb not spend its energy training software >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> developers >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their one size fits all blindness box? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Many companies besides Apple would get the benefits that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> way. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just my take, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Karen >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 12 Jul 2014, Pamela Francis wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally am not in favor of this resolution; not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want accessibility. Apple took the lead in making its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible without government or organizational >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> intervention. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on the other hand, allowed third-party vendors to do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> within >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. Google, though it has come along way, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> want >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to adhere to its own standards unless it is pressed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there was a resolution to be had, it should've been >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> blanket >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resolution for all companies dealing with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessibility. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Picking >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple, is as if we as a blind community are slapping it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> face >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> given that it has continued its efforts to remain >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> understand the need for utilitarian apps such as maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maps, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> notes, lists, etc. to remain accessible as they are a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessary >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> function >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in normal life. However, just to use as an example I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> necessarily >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need Angry Birds to be accessible for my benefit nor do >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> threatened to be kicked from the app store due to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inaccessibility >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sake of millions of people who enjoy it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As we continue to strive for accessibility in all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> areas, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> need >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a bully to the company that went out of its way to make >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> products >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accessible from the beginning. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We also do not need to be put into a societal box >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> allowing >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> electronics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> manufacturers, appliance manufacturers, and the general >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that all we are capable of is operating an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPhone. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> on >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cusp of choice. We have fought for choice for a long >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> This >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> type >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a resolution makes us look militant and ungrateful. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fair for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one company is fair for all. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pam Francis >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 12, 2014, at 9:28 AM, Terje Strømberg >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <terjestrmb...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The NFB Resolution is very important for all blind and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> low >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vision >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> all >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> over the world. We all want accessible digital future. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> A link to a comment from the president in NFB: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://nfb.org/blog/vonb-blog/comments-apple-and-nfb-resolution-2014-12 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send an email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Take care, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Ty >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://tds-solutions.net >>>>>>>>>>>>> He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a >>>>>>>>>>>>> fool; >>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>> that dares not reason is a slave. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>>> an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, >>>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> Visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>>>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>>>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send >>>>>>>> an >>>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups >>>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send >>>>>>> an >>>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>> macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups >>>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send >>>>>> an >>>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Marianne Denning, TVI, MA >>>>> Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired >>>>> (513) 607-6053 >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups >>>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an >>>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups >>>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an >>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an >>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> > > > > -- > Take care, > Ty > http://tds-solutions.net > He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that > dares not reason is a slave. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Marianne Denning, TVI, MA Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired (513) 607-6053 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
