Donna, your absolutely correct on all points. True the thread has run its course, but it is important to remember that no one person is more superior to another based on the os, screen reader, or other technology they use. If people walk about with this attitude, they only hurt themselves and discourage others from exploring the option of a Mac, when in fact we as Mac users should be prepared to help others and certainly answer questions regardless of how silly they may seem to you. After all for anyone to deny they didn't have some difficulty at first who had not used a Mac previously, is only lying to themselves and those around them.
On Aug 30, 2009, at 9:24 AM, Donna Goodin wrote: > > Hey Scott, > > Joking is always good. :) And sometimes Windows deserves your > jabs. And I'm totally with you about the paycheck! *grin* > > But in the six weeks I've had my Mac, I can't count how many off- > list exchanges I've had with people who felt put off or > uncomfortable by the way many Mac users disdain Windows, and Windows > users. I personally received a pretty ugly message from someone on > another list. I talked to enough people who felt this way that for > a while I actually considered starting a new Mac list, specifically > for those transitioning from Windows and JAWS or Window-Eyes. It's > natural and even appropriate to take what you know from previous > experiences and apply that knowledge to hnhew ones, even if we're > not deliberately trying to do that. If you learn a foreign > language, for example, you're initially going to apply the > strategies and concepts from your first language, even though you > know intellectually that the phonetics, the orthography, and the > syntax are different. Of course, if you're going to be successful, > you need to move beyond that stage, and that is the goal. But that > linguistic interference is well-documented, and is anticipated by > people like me who teach language. Likewise, it's impossible to > approach a new computer system without having some expectations or > hold-over behaviors from your prior computer experience. The > eventual goal is to be able to work comfortably with the Mac on its > own, but it can take a while to get to that stage. > > I think the old addage that you can catch more flies with honey > than with vinegar definitely applies here. The Mac has a lot to > offer, and it would be a shame for folks not to choose it because > they think they'll get slammed. > > Anyway, I'll stop my rant. :) this topic has probably already gotten > more attention than it should have. > Take care, > Donna > > -----Original Message----- > From: Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> > Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2009 5:46 AM > To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? > > > Well stated Donna and all my jabs at windows really is more poking > fun, but I still can't stand windows and glad to have a choice. I use > windows at work and that is what we have, but luckily there is even > there a choice. I personally don't care what you use as long as your > productive. After all, no one os earns you a paycheck and quite > frankly I'll learn to use a pencil and paper if that is what earns me > a paycheck, so I can go buy a Mac. :) Couldn't let that slide by. :) > On Aug 29, 2009, at 11:06 PM, Donna Goodin wrote: > >> >> Hello all, >> >> I have to support Rich here. The attitude displayed by many Mac >> users >> toward Windows, and toward Windows users who are doing their best to >> learn >> the Mac OS is frankly despicable. Many mac users--definitely not >> all--are >> nothing more than a bunch of narrow-minded snobs. Windows is not >> "the dark >> side". It is a viable choice, perhaps a better choice for some >> people. >> JAWS and Windows worked very well for me for nearly 20 years. I am >> only >> here because I want to support Apple's efforts, not because I believe >> Windows or JAWS to be the devil incarnate. Yes, editing is >> different. >> Those who prefer editing in Windows are not wrong, they just prefer >> something different. They are entitled to that preference, just as >> all on >> this list are entitled to their preference for the Mac. If Apple >> implements >> some choices to facilitate transition from Windows, there's nothing >> wrong >> with that. No one has to use it unless they want to. >> >> Personally, I think it's great that there are multiple alternatives >> now >> available for blind users. Yes, what Apple has done for >> accessibility is >> tremendous. That said, I just applied for a job at a place where >> they >> pretty much come out and tell you that if you choose to use a Mac, >> you won't >> be able to utilize all of their materials. So, if I get that >> position, I'll >> be using Windows for all things work-related. I therefore hope that >> Windows >> continues to be a viable option for blind users. The best possible >> scenario >> for us is to have as many options as possible, so that each of us >> can decide >> which is the best fit for us and for our immediate needs. The Mac >> has many >> things to recommend it. But you all who choose to use it, are in no >> way >> superior to anyone else, and you have no right to disdain others who >> either >> choose the Windows option, or are willing to point out the Mac's >> weaknesses. >> And yes, the Mac does have very definite weaknesses, as does Windows. >> >> Why can't we all just be supportive and respectful of one another? >> I think >> the thing I find saddest about this whole movement toward the Mac, >> is the >> way it seems to polarize everyone. Let's just support each >> person's right >> to find what works best for them and be happy about that. >> >> Donna >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> [mailto:macvisionar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rich Ring >>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 9:16 PM >>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>> >>> >>> With all respect, I am sure there was a time when you were a >>> beginner. >>> I am >>> an extremely competent Windows user. This doesn't in and of itself >>> make me >>> the spawn of Satan, it is simply a statement concerning my current >>> technological status. One of the things that has kept me from >>> purchasing a >>> Mac until today is the condescending manner in which some (certainly >>> not >>> all) Mac users treat those of us who are investigating this pltform >>> who >>> have >>> been Windows users. >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Marie Howarth" <marie.jane2...@gmail.com> >>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 7:45 PM >>> Subject: Re: 3 features that hmm? >>> >>> >>> >>> think I did say I was glad of the choice, just sad apple had to >>> accomodate those who find it impossible to edit text in the way it >>> is >>> meant to be edited. they are features that yes, fine they are here >>> now, just weren't really missing in my opinion. If others need their >>> screen reader to hold their hand cool. whatever everyone needs. as I >>> stated, opinion, that's all. everyone's allowed those :) >>> >>> On Aug 30, 2009, at 1:39 AM, Scott Howell wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> Come on this is crazy. You just can't imagine the number of people >>> who >>>> bitched and complained about this whole editing issue and I believe >>>> Apple was taken to task by one of the rags put out by the NFB or >>>> some >>>> organization about the editing issue. APparently enough people >>>> complained that Apple was trying to provide the flexibility for >>>> those >>>> users who need it. Yeah, I am one of the Scotts who made this >>>> point >>>> because I remember clearly the noise about this editing issue. I >>>> see >>>> no benefit in removing it and quite frankly since it's here, >>>> whatever >>>> at this point. If it really helps someone , fine because there are >>>> those who would simply not consider the Mac for this reason. It is >>> an >>>> option and not a default and that is why it's a feature not worth >>>> removing. My point is you have to think beyond what you have stated >>>> and I don't entirely disagree with your point of what is or is >>>> not a >>>> standard way of editing etc. At the same time, it obviously didn't >>>> take a great deal of effort to implement it and at least it is an >>>> option. >>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 7:14 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Also just my oppinion, but I disagree about points 1 and 2. >>>>> >>>>> Can't say I ever have used feature numero uno in any OS as there >>>>> are >>>>> so few webpages I'd actually want to read 100% of their content, >>>>> but >>>>> someone somewhere will find it useful. You could argue that the >>>>> reading webpages automatically is as close as Apple could get to a >>>>> sighted person glancing at the screen when the page comes up and >>>>> taking in the bigger picture, which we can't do. >>>>> >>>>> Voiceover hints are definitely useful and a good thing. Context >>>>> sensitive help like that enables most people to be on a way >>>>> shorter >>>>> learning curve usually than reading a whole manual and trying to >>>>> apply >>>>> things to a ton of situations at once. It's annoying that they're >>>>> enabled by default for you or I perhaps, but newbies are going to >>>>> thank Apple for it no doubt. Come to that, so will developers who >>>>> fire up VO for the first time when they receive a disgruntled >>>>> email >>>>> from someone who's asking them to make adjustments to their >>>>> applications. It'll instantly demonstrate to them the difference >>>>> between what works and what doesn't, it gives them instructions >>>>> equally as precise as that email from the VI user would in most >>>>> cases. >>>>> >>>>> Wholeheartedly agreed about point 3 though. I just don't get this >>>>> one. You also hit the nail right on the head with the reason the >>>>> option shouldn't exist, it modifies a standard that doesn't in any >>>>> way >>>>> need to be modified, purely because of some VI people's rut that >>>>> they're firmly jammed into. To add weight to a big sweeping >>> oppinion >>>>> like that, I should say that I was raised on Windows, still use >>>>> Windows more often than many on here I expect, and I make my fair >>>>> share of mistakes editing in Mac OS if I haven't done any in a >>> while. >>>>> I don't see this option as the solution, I see it as cheating. I >>>>> doubt that many people will see this as an option to ease their >>>>> progression into Mac OS as one of the other Scott's suggested, >>>>> human's >>>>> just don't work that way, for the most part we're creatures of >>>>> habit >>>>> even if they're bad ones. >>>>> >>>>> Tricky one though isn't it. Emailing Apple and asking that a >>> feature >>>>> be removed seems somehow wrong in my mind. In any case, I'm not >>> sure >>>>> they'd get it. I just tried to explain why I disagree with the >>>>> feature and what's potentially at stake here to a sighted mac >>>>> user, >>>>> and she point blank didn't get it. I'm not sure that anyone who >>>>> hasn't had to appreciate how cool mainstream technology that works >>>>> for >>>>> us out of the box would, even Apple themselves might not, they >>>>> probably see the introduction of this feature as the best thing >>>>> they >>>>> could've done to silence a lot of whinging lol. >>>>> >>>>> Just my 2 cents, or perhaps pennies worth for those on this side >>>>> of >>>>> the pond... >>>>> Scott >>>>> >>>>> On 8/29/09, Scott Howell <s.how...@verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Well good for you, I'm glad you did not need these features and >>>>>> you >>>>>> learned the way we all started out. However, of course the only >>>>>> plus >>>>>> side is that for those who want to make the transition and really >>>>>> find >>>>>> what we "grew up with" difficult, will at least have a way to >>>>>> ease >>>>>> their transition over from the dark side. :) So, I agree with >>>>>> you, >>>>>> but these are small prices to pay if it will truly help someone >>> make >>>>>> the transition. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Aug 29, 2009, at 6:17 PM, Marie Howarth wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> well, this is purely my opinion but 3 features that horribly >>>>>>> remind me >>>>>>> of windows are as follows. >>>>>>> 1. automatic reading of a webpage. >>>>>>> 2. voice over hints. I know what to do in a text area, >>>>>>> especially >>>>>>> when >>>>>>> it already says edit text. >>>>>>> 3. insertion point. this has been discussed, it's counter >>> intuitive >>>>>>> and doesn't teach the vi community how it would look to >>>>>>> sighties. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> all I can say is I'm so glad these features are optional. they >>>>>>> are >>>>>>> just horrific and no one can tell me that it will help >>>>>>> progression >>>>>>> from windows to mac. I didn't have these features and I am so >>>>>>> glad I >>>>>>> did. mac is not windows, when will people realise this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> overall vo rocks even more in this version, and I am grateful to >>>>>>> apple >>>>>>> for giving us a choice. really glad. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>> >>> No virus found in this incoming message. >>> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >>> Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.13.71/2333 - Release Date: >>> 08/29/09 17:51:00 >> >> >>> > > > > > > > > --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~---
