On Wed, 5 Nov 2008 09:39:00 -0500 Steve Litt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Tuesday 04 November 2008 07:19:32 pm rgheck wrote: > > Since Uwe moved this to users, I'll forward my comments here as well. > > > > -------- Original Message -------- > > Subject: Re: Word processor bashing > > Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2008 17:06:13 -0500 > > From: RGH <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: Patrick Camilleri <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]@ovgu.de> > > > > Patrick Camilleri wrote: > > > Dear Sir, > > > > > > Though I find LaTeX + LyX to be a very good typesetting system, I dont > > > understand all this bashing at other word processors in your > > > Introduction to LyX document. In my opinion if one took at least ŧ the > > > amount of time one needed to learn LaTeX, one would find out that modern > > > Word Processors are indeed very capable tools. Styles have been > > > supported, at least in Word, since quite some time and not just in most > > > recent versions as quoted in the footnote on page 2. I already remember > > > using Styles in Word 97 and frankly I cant imagine anybody writing > > > anything longer than 4 pages without having any concept of Styles. You > > > would go crazy! Most people I know ignore styles all together in word. For all my wifes accademic works, she would write them out and then I would spend a day convrting everything to styles to get it to be consistent. They are a pain though with word as it's very difficult to find where styles are not applied or are modified and it can go crazy over small modifications. The only sane way I found to work with styles in word is in outline mode, which is much closer to latex in approach. > > > > I'd have to go back and look at the Intro to see precisely what it says, > > so I won't defend it (yet). But I will take exception to this last > > claim. I know a lot of people who use Word, etc, and I don't know a > > single person who regularly uses styles. > > You know him now :-) > > Hi Richard, > > By 1988 I used paragraph and character styles for almost every kind of > appearance, in my mainmatter, in WordPerfect 5.0. After switching to MS Word > in 1994, I used paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost > every kind of appearance. After switching to LyX in 2001 I tried my best to > use paragraph and character styles, in my mainmatter, for almost every kind > of appearance, but as I've written (and maybe ranted) often in the past, > LyX/LaTeX styles are difficult to create for a non-LaTeX-guru. > One of the advantages with lyx/latex is that I haven't found the need yet. And the small amount I have needed was always either done by some package or other or can be very easily achieved with \newcommand > In about 2005 I briefly flirted with OpenOffice, and dumped it when I > realized its paragraph and character styles were too quirky to use with any > confidence. > It can be annoying. > > Students and colleagues send me > > papers written in Word all the time, and I'm struggling to remember a > > single time any one of them sent me one that used styles. So, yes, > > certainly styles exist in Word, et al, but those tools do not encourage, > > let alone enforce, the use of such styles, and that is an important > > difference between LyX and standard word processors: LyX is style-based, > > from the ground up, not a finger-painting tool with styles grafted onto > > it. I just refuse to accept word documents. I tell my students that if they want to send me text, either write it as text, convert it to pdf or scan it in hand writing. Since my work is equations (mathematics) I can never read them properly in word format. I haven't found a good reason yet not to force my will on other people on this point and I tend to be rather stubborn ... ;-) > > I think that's an unfair statement. MS Word styles work quite well and are > integral to Word. Word's styles are MUCH easier to create than LyX's. One > could argue that Word doesn't come with document classes that define an > important set of styles, but Word is distributed with templates that do. > They are easier to make than lyx but a hell to keep consistent as word has a serious tendency to locally tweak or forget them for some reason. I also tried working with them in word 2007 and it was hell with the new and terrible ribbon. > > That's why learning to use LyX, even to write a letter, is such a > > big adjustment for people. > Writing a letter in lyx is a pain. Writing a paper or god forbid a thesis in word is torture. Mixing ltr and rtl languages and to be so bold as to throw in a few equations under word is nearly impossible, styles or not. > For me it's an adjustment because creating a new style can take between an > hour and 3 days in LyX, but only 5-15 minutes in Word. > > > Speaking as a teacher, I often worry that my > > students are themselves much too worried about formatting even while > > they are writing first drafts, > > That's exactly right. > > > and this is in large part because WYSIWYG > > tools present writing and formatting as one thing and not as two. > > I'd put it a little differently -- it's because the students haven't yet > understood the benefits of consistent appearences through the document, and > the benefits of change one style and change its appearance throughout the > document. > > Oh, and some people are just turkeys, and they put 10 fonts on one page and > think they've been creative. > > [clip] > > > So in my opinion this isnt really one of the strong points of LaTeX. > > > Rather I find the ability of being able to typeset mathematical equations > > > as being one of the strongest points of LaTeX, together with being able > > > to seamlessly insert bibliographies and cross-references. > > Hi Patrick, > > I hardly ever use equations in my books, and usually don't use > bibliographies, and even if I did it would be easy to do it manually, and I'm > pretty sure MS Word does bibliographies. > Equations are a nightmare with word. Slightly easier with latex but can get tiresome with complicated equations. Lyx takes the load of over there and equation editing is one of the main reasons I use lyx instead of plain latex. Word does bibliographies but they are much harder to manage than lyx/latex especially for scientific papers where you need quite a bit of them. Also when you pass of parts of papers from one journal/conference to the next and you need to change bibliography standard a good bibliography handling tool is a must. Cross references are also a pain with word AFAIK, especially with relation to latex. > What I like about LyX over MS Word is: > > 1) LyX is rock stable. > 2) LyX's native format is humanly readable and parsable. > 3) LyX produces beautiful output with minimal tweaking. > 4) LyX is free software. No license tracking. > 5) LyX is pretty good about version conversion -- probably better than Word. > > LyX is a very fast tool with which I can pound out 2000-3000 words per day, > and not have to worry about the look of the output -- I know it will be good. > It's incredibly easy to use. One overlooked benefit is it won't let me put in > a double space or a double linefeed. > > I handle the fact that LyX is much harder than Word to make styles like this: > When writing and perceiving I need a new style, I make a dummy style, with > the proper name, and continue writing so as not to lose my train of thought. > Then, on a day when I've got my tech hat on, I improve the style in my layout > file, using a small document with which to test it. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > Recession Relief Package > http://www.recession-relief.US >
