Cray no longer deploys liblustre.  Therefore, we probably take a 'don't
care' position in the discussion about the future of liblustre or libcfs.

Thanks,
-Cory

On 03/16/2012 01:45 AM, Alexey Lyashkov wrote:
> If cray don't wan't to use a liblustre single thread client - liblustre is 
> good start to create a multi platform client.
> As i know it's work now on Mac and FreeBSD, as Windows have a FUSE port - 
> it's should be work in Windows also.
> 
> 
> On Mar 16, 2012, at 02:53, Nathan Rutman wrote:
> 
>> We had a thought that a FUSE-based client based on liblustre might make 
>> sense to avoid the NFS/Samba re-export problems (scalability, coherency), at 
>> the potential price of some performance.  You mentioned on the phone this 
>> morning that someone had already done something like this in the past?  If 
>> we revive this work, presumably we can drop the Mac native client.  
>> On the other hand, I agree that the baggage is large, and it will take much 
>> more work to see this through, and without a real champion and/or a real 
>> community need, I understand the desire to drop it.
>>
>> On Mar 15, 2012, at 11:38 AM, Andreas Dilger wrote:
>>
>>> On 2012-03-15, at 8:22 AM, Tyler Hawes wrote:
>>>> Having a native Windows & Mac client is by far our company's #1 most 
>>>> important feature for the future. We have been seriously considering how 
>>>> we could help make this happen, including putting funds and/or developers 
>>>> toward the cause.
>>>
>>> Tyler, thanks for your feedback.
>>>
>>> While at Oracle, there was serious effort put toward having a Windows 
>>> Native Client.  Unfortunately, this died along with other Oracle Lustre 
>>> development projects, and the proprietary code has been sitting unused 
>>> inside Oracle since then.
>>>
>>> Similarly, the MacOS native client project started a couple of years ago, 
>>> but as yet none of the code has been released.  While some work was done 
>>> for a Solaris server, I don't see much hope in that making progress at all.
>>>
>>> In both cases, I would be supportive of these efforts if there was a 
>>> likelihood of them bearing fruit any time in the future, but so far I 
>>> haven't seen any progress in that direction.  If Oracle could somehow 
>>> release the WNC code and/or NRL can overcome the government roadblocks in 
>>> their path for releasing the MacOS client (MLC?), it would definitely 
>>> change the direction of my thinking.
>>>
>>> As it stands now, we have portability code for Windows/Mac without any 
>>> ability to even build the code, let alone test it, so it is just a burden 
>>> for Linux.  If there was real value being derived from that code (e.g. 
>>> actual users), then it might be an acceptable burden.
>>>
>>>> I know we're in the minority on this, but I believe it's because we are 
>>>> not using Lustre for HPC. We use it for post-production of TV/film. There 
>>>> are a few others companies in our industry who have started doing this as 
>>>> well. My point is that, while Lustre currently is focused on the HPC crowd 
>>>> who seem not to care about Windows/Mac, Lustre's maturity is giving it the 
>>>> potential to grow into other uses besides HPC. I wouldn't call them 
>>>> general use, but other high-performance uses. In our industry, where there 
>>>> are a lot of Windows & Mac workstations that we want to connect to the 
>>>> Lustre storage, the Linux-only client is a major obstacle to that. I'm 
>>>> sure there are other industries that would benefit from this. 
>>>
>>> Yes, the TV/film industry was one of the prime motivators for WNC.  There 
>>> have always been a small number of users from this market, and growth in 
>>> this industry (and others) is definitely welcomed.
>>>
>>>> If the community wants to keep Lustre strictly HPC focused and discourage 
>>>> other industries from joining in, then abandoning the bridge (albeit the 
>>>> half-built bridge that it is) to Linux/Windows is a good way to do that. 
>>>> If, on the other hand, there is a desire to get some other industries 
>>>> involved, perhaps with more resources and contribution coming from them, 
>>>> then I think it's important to build on the work that has been done. In 
>>>> that regard, upstream Linux kernel inclusion seems like a very low 
>>>> priority to me.
>>>
>>> I think even for upstream kernel submission, if it were clear that the 
>>> layering in Lustre was for a valid purpose (i.e. existing Mac/Win clients) 
>>> then it might be accepted.  As it stands now, we can't honestly make that 
>>> argument to the kernel maintainers.
>>>
>>>> 2012/3/15 <[email protected]>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Andreas Dilger <[email protected]>
>>>> To: [email protected]
>>>> Cc: wc-discuss <[email protected]>, lustre-discuss discuss 
>>>> <[email protected]>, Lustre Devel 
>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>> Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 18:31:29 -0600
>>>> Subject: [Lustre-discuss] Lustre and cross-platform portability
>>>> Whamcloud and EMC are jointly investigating how to be able to contribute 
>>>> the Lustre client code into the upstream Linux kernel.
>>>>
>>>> As a prerequisite to this, EMC is working to clean up the Lustre client 
>>>> code to better match the kernel coding style, and one of the anticipated 
>>>> major obstacles to upstream kernel submission is the heavy use of code 
>>>> abstraction via libcfs for portability to other operating systems (most 
>>>> notably MacOS and WinNT, but also for liblustre, and potentially *BSD).
>>>>
>>>> I have no information that the WinNT project will ever be released by 
>>>> Oracle, and as yet there has not been any code released from the MacOS 
>>>> port, so the libcfs portability layer is potentially exacting a high cost 
>>>> in code maintenance and complexity (CLIO being a prime example) for no 
>>>> apparent benefit.  Similarly, the liblustre client needs a portability 
>>>> layer for userspace, and suffers from the same apparent lack of interest 
>>>> or users.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to get some feedback from the Lustre community about removing the 
>>>> libcfs abstraction entirely, or possibly restructuring it to look like the 
>>>> Linux kernel API, and having the other platforms code against it as a 
>>>> Linux portability layer, like ZFS on Linux uses the Solaris Portability 
>>>> Layer (SPL) to avoid changing the core ZFS code.  A related topic is 
>>>> whether it would be better to replace all cfs_* functions with standard 
>>>> Linux kernel functions en-masse, or migrate away from cfs_* functions 
>>>> slowly?
>>>>
>>>> Also, we're planning on deprecating the liblustre client code, due to lack 
>>>> of interest/usage.  The current code is in disrepair, and we've been 
>>>> keeping it around for years without any benefit, and while I was one of 
>>>> the strongest advocates for keeping it in our back pocket in case of 
>>>> future needs, I don't see that materializing in the future.
>>>>
>>>> The liblustre code would be left in the tree for now, in case someone from 
>>>> the community is interested to get it working and maintain it, and it may 
>>>> be updated on a best effort basis.  If nobody steps forward to do this 
>>>> work, the liblustre code would be deleted from the development branch in a 
>>>> year or so.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately, after starting this thread, I may not be able to reply to 
>>>> questions in a timely manner due to vacation.  I look forward to a thread 
>>>> that concludes with unanimous agreement from all parties. :-)
>>>>
>>>> Cheers, Andreas
>>>> --
>>>> Andreas Dilger                       Whamcloud, Inc.
>>>> Principal Lustre Engineer            http://www.whamcloud.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers, Andreas
>>> --
>>> Andreas Dilger                       Whamcloud, Inc.
>>> Principal Lustre Engineer            http://www.whamcloud.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> 
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