Phil, I don't see any value in rolling back to A-3 or even rolling back specific packages (e.g. the xserver radeon driver which is the change that did it) to A-3. Things move on and it is crazy to hold back other architectures because of problems that are PowerPC specific. Indeed that is the position that was made clear when PowerPC became a 'port'. PowerPC can install fine. It can install fine on radeon. It just needs a yaboot parameter applying. It is how to comunicate this information to the user that is the problem. People just don't read information that is given to them. But, honestly, it is a really easy problem to overcome and I don't think a big deal needs to be made of it. I'm much more interested in getting things like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/1051313 and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1043066 fixed. These are fixable and solutions have already been worked out (it would be great if Colin could get them into 12.10 so Lubuntu can test). The current PowerPC radeon kernel config is a bodge job (KMS is enabled by default but the legacy radeonfb module is also built in so that KMS drm is disabled). I have to confess I am largely responsible for this https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/949288 . Although, in my defence, this is the same config as was used in 10.04, 10.10 and debian wheezy. It's a flexible setup so that things can be controlled from the yaboot prompt (although the default setup isn't actually ideal). The problem is with the changes that have been made to the xserver-xorg-video-radeon package this config now drops you into 8 bit graphics (forcing you this time to use a yaboot parameter). What is happening is that the radeon xorg driver detects drm is unavailable and unloads itself and the fbdev diver is used instead (for some reason this defaults to 8 bit). This didn't used to happen. You could certainly ask the question if it is possible to have KMS without drm? Not being a graphics expert, I don't know if that is a stupid question or not. The radeon driver in 10.04, 10.10 and 12.04 certainly did a good job of giving us the impression it was using KMS without drm, but maybe we were using UMS afterall??? If it wasn't for https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu-artwork/+bug/1052619 I would say remove the radeonfb module from being built in (so that you don't have to type video=ofonly). This would enable KMS and PowerPC would be setup as close as it can get to other architectures. This would be sensible in my opinion. You need to see how widespread bug 1052619 is. Radeonfb is going to have to be removed at some point, it might as well be 12.10. You have to understand this will make it more painful for some people though. It's much easier to use the fbdev driver with radeonfb built in. Radeonfb is currently needed for suspend so if you need suspend then you now have to use the fbdev driver (that is something else to take into account). You can use radeonfb as a module, and indeed there are already instructions in the PowerPC FAQ (because that was the setup in 11.04 and 11.10). I can't explain it any clearer. Unless you can have KMS without drm, then the only choice is do you remove radeonfb for 12.10 or not. Either way, the boot message on the CDs needs to be updated and the timer removed so that people have a chance to read the new message. I'll copy in lubuntu-qa into this message to get their opinion. If the team can confirm (or dismiss) and generally help out on any of the other bugs I listed in the bottom email then that would be great! Regards Adam Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2012 05:17:48 +0100 Subject: Re: PowerPC bugs From: phi...@ubuntu.com To: ojordan12...@hotmail.co.uk CC: nicholas.ska...@canonical.com Hi Adam, I had a quick chat with Colin about things[1], but with FFE and beta 2 going on, I've tried to leave him in peace. He has given me a couple of teams to go and prod, but there is zero chance of rolling things back to A3 when it could actually install before things like kernel changes were made. I'll go ask on Monday of the two teams he has suggested to see what happens. Regards, Phill. 1. (00:03:30) cjwatson: phillw: go ahead (00:04:33) phillw: cjwatson: Adam gave the best he knew on the ppc issues, something happened after A3 that has crippled things :( (00:05:17) phillw: infinity: btw, you asked to be reminded to put lubuntu iso's on a diet :) (00:05:41) cjwatson: Oversizedness doesn't seem crippling. I'd have thought most powerpc machines that could still run *buntu had DVD drives anyway. (00:05:42) queuebot: (notice) Unapproved: grub2-signed (quantal-release/universe) [1.0 => 1.1] (no packageset) (00:05:49) infinity: phillw: Yeah, I'll poke at that for you on Monday. (00:05:57) cjwatson: ^- grub2-signed 1.1 totally not b2-critical, just wanted it off my disk (00:05:57) phillw: cjwatson: it is not the oversize (00:05:59) infinity: cjwatson: None of the current PPC dailies are actually oversized anyway. (00:06:12) cjwatson: phillw: then you might want to be just a little more specific (00:06:25) infinity: cjwatson: (Though some other lubuntu images are, and I'll balance those later for them) (00:06:38) phillw: cjwatson: if you get chance, can you have a read of the bugs? (00:06:43) cjwatson: phillw: what bugs? (00:22:17) phillw: cjwatson: I cannot access them, balloons should be coming on soon to give the numbers (00:22:57) balloons: 1040544 1040526 1044180 (00:23:04) balloons: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1040544 (00:23:05) ubot2: Launchpad bug 1040544 in ubiquity "Installer dialog does not come up on PPC" [Undecided,Confirmed] (00:23:09) balloons: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1040526 (00:23:10) ubot2: Launchpad bug 1040526 in linux "Graphics dithered on Desktop image" [Medium,Confirmed] (00:23:12) balloons: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/1044180 (00:23:13) ubot2: Launchpad bug 1044180 in lightdm "Screen Freeze on Bootup - Lubuntu 12.10 PPC Alternate Aug 30 Build" [Undecided,Confirmed] (00:26:52) phillw: balloons: thanks (00:27:46) phillw: 1040256 is not a priority! (00:29:47) cjwatson: Sorry, I can't help with bug 1040544, which is the only one there that's really in my general area. It seems to be something to do with window management or X or the kernel's graphics drivers, rather than a problem with ubiquity itself. (00:29:47) ubot2: Launchpad bug 1040544 in ubiquity "Installer dialog does not come up on PPC" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1040544 (00:30:06) cjwatson: You need to find some kind of graphicsy person. (00:30:35) phillw: cjwatson: can I ask what happened between A3 and B1? (00:31:07) phillw: we had ppc working at A3, Adam suggests that it was a kernel change? (00:31:37) cjwatson: I have no idea. That's too wide a range for me even to begin to guess. (00:31:46) cjwatson: I'm not aware of any specific "hey, let's break powerpc" change ... (00:31:57) phillw: something happened between A3 and beta 1. (00:32:14) cjwatson: Remember that this could be an emergent effect of any one of thousands of changes to quite a number of packages. (00:32:28) cjwatson: It's not much use to try guessing that way. (00:32:46) cjwatson: There was probably a new X stack in there, if memory serves (00:32:53) phillw: cjwatson: is there any way to get the A3 shrunk to standard CD size? (00:32:53) cjwatson: But I expect there were also quite a few kernel changes (00:33:36) phillw: then, at least, the testers could add in stuff one step at a time? (00:33:47) cjwatson: We can't build alpha-3 any more; we no longer have that archive. (00:34:02) cjwatson: So no, not unless you want to go stripping stuff out by hand. (00:34:06) phillw: cjwatson: I have the iso on the server. (00:34:35) cjwatson: Surely there must be somebody with Radeon and a DVD drive. Lots of Macs used to fit that description. (00:35:17) phillw: I really don't know about this area, all I have ensured is that the milestone A3 iso's are still there. (00:35:22) cjwatson: Re bug 1040526, I can certainly amend CD docs as needed, but I would really strongly prefer to have authoritative directions from somebody who knows about kernel graphics and/or X, rather than effectively passing on guesswork (00:35:23) ubot2: Launchpad bug 1040526 in linux "Graphics dithered on Desktop image" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/1040526 (00:35:30) cjwatson: I'm afraid I don't know about this area either. Sorry. (00:35:45) cjwatson: You might try #ubuntu-x or #ubuntu-kernel, although probably more during working hours of some kind. (00:36:06) cjwatson: They might at least know how to debug it. (00:36:54) cjwatson: The tail of 1040526 suggests that switching powerpc to GRUB might be helpful, but there's no way I can squeeze that in for 12.10 - and it's not like alpha-3 was using GRUB. (00:38:21) phillw: cjwatson: one of the things that was suggested, and crazy as it seems... could we revert back to an on-size A3? Before the changes to kernal / install etc were made? (00:38:35) cjwatson: No. (00:38:38) cjwatson: Completely impossible. (00:39:18) cjwatson: Reverting individual packages is one thing (although the whole X stack for a problem on one architecture, not so much) (00:39:23) cjwatson: Reverting the whole archive - not possible (00:39:51) phillw: hmm. okies.. as the b1 was a fail from day one, I was hoping to plead regression. (00:40:15) cjwatson: You can plead all you like, but I'm afraid it is well beyond difficult and into totally and utterly infeasible. Sorry. (00:40:20) phillw: it is only ppc, and only lubuntu (as we're the only ones doing it) (00:40:32) cjwatson: We can't revert just one architecture and just one flavour like that. (00:40:44) cjwatson: You guys wanted to be part of the Ubuntu archive :-) (00:40:55) cjwatson: Means you have to play by the rules, which include building off the current archive (00:41:07) phillw: okies, lubuntu and ppc to me, are two different teams. (00:41:18) cjwatson: Doesn't matter (00:42:16) cjwatson: Anyway, alpha-3 would be unreleaseable for other reasons (00:42:30) phillw: cjwatson: so, it appears that a ppc for 12.10 is not possible... too many bugs & no resolutions possible? (00:42:33) cjwatson: You can certainly try assembling images by hand based on that, although it isn't going to be quick (00:42:44) cjwatson: I would not like to make such a judgement four weeks out (00:42:51) cjwatson: I am simply saying that *I* can't help (00:43:06) cjwatson: And I gave you directions to two different channels which include people likely to be quite clueful about this stuff (00:43:28) cjwatson: So you should really follow those up (on Monday, probably) before giving up (00:43:43) jbicha [~jeremy@ubuntu/member/jbicha] entered the room. (00:43:45) phillw: Thanks, I will ask there, but the fact the kernel was changed does fill me with dread. (00:43:59) cjwatson: It shouldn't. That's kind of the job of #ubuntu-kernel. (00:44:29) cjwatson: FWIW my suspicions would fall on the X stack for preference, but that may not be worth much as this is not my field. (00:44:35) phillw: cjwatson: and, personally, please do not think I'm giving you a hard time. I just would really like a ppc out for 12.10 (00:44:44) cjwatson: Ask people who know :-) (00:45:36) cjwatson: I don't think you're giving me a hard time - I just genuinely can't help any more than the attempts I've already made (which in retrospect were indeed likely to be invalid if these problems are Radeon-specific) (00:45:50) phillw: I'll go and make my self unpopular on their channels :P (00:46:27) cjwatson: If the X or kernel teams say that this is going to need a boot parameter workaround, I'm more than happy to either install that by default on the images or document it for some users, depending on what's appropriate (00:46:38) cjwatson: But normally, boot parameters aren't the solution we prefer (00:49:08) phillw: cjwatson: do you mind if I cc this chat to the ppc testers? (00:49:24) cjwatson: Not at all (00:49:32) phillw: again, thanks On 21 September 2012 10:01, o jordan <ojordan12...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: Phil and Nicholas, Just thought I'd put together a list of bugs that I think could do with looking at by the Lubuntu team and maybe prodding under the nose of Colin Watson if he has time. The first bug encountered by some people is they can't even boot the CD! It's not a great impression of *Ubuntu/linux and the fix is such a potentially easy one: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-cdimage/+bug/1051313 Installing to a USB drive or having another OS installed on a USB drive causes ubiquity to crash. It can, infact, be any exotic hardware setup that causes the problem as demonstarted in this current ubuntu forum thread http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=2046773 . I've put together a fix in yaboot-installer which I would be gratefull if the Lubuntu team could test so Colin Watson can apply a patch: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/1043066 Can the lubuntu testers confirm this ubiquity bug with manual partitioning? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubiquity/+bug/945056 We all know about the problems with radeon in 12.10 by now: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1040526 Does non-PowerPC Lubuntu suffer from this bug? Basically a previously installed Lubuntu is labelled as Ubuntu in grub/yaboot: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/os-prober/+bug/950914 I had a problem with LVM when I tested it in 12.04. I did it on the last day, it was all a bit of a rush, hence no logs. Can Lubuntu confirm (and provide logs?) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/debian-installer/+bug/988496 Can Lubuntu users confirm the yellow title bar bug? If they don't have the problem with a radeon card and KMS then that is also worth mentioning on the bug report so that what is and isn't affected can be narrowed down: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/lubuntu-artwork/+bug/1052619 I could go on.... (I didn't mention the fan modules did I?.....)...., but I think the above is enough to be going on with for now. Cheers, Adam -- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/phillw
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