O ensaio abaixo, que prova que "PUC is harder than Princeton", fez-me lembrar desta discussão mais ou menos recente, na lista: http://revistapiaui.estadao.com.br/blogs/questoes-estrangeiras/geral/back-to-school
JM 2011/8/11 Valeria de Paiva <[email protected]> > Joao Marcos, > acho que voce esta' sendo pessimista. > acho tb que a situacao nao era tao ruim nos anos 50 como a estoria > apresenta nao. > O Feynman era um genio como fisico, nao sei se ele sabia entender situacoes > sociais tao bem quanto ele pensava que sabia. > 'E claro que existia e ainda existe muita decoreba, no Brasil. e no resto > do mundo tb. e' claro que, em alguns lugares, mais do que em outros... > 'E claro que nao 'e isso que a gente quer. > o que nao 'e claro 'e como fazer para as pessoas entenderem realmente os > assuntos, sejam eles matematica, fisica, literatura francesa, ...ou tricot. > > o que eu concordo com o Feynman 'e que tem que perguntar, tem que discutir, > tem que discordar das autoridades estabelecidas, o tempo todo. > > o abstruse goose tem um cartoon super bonitinho com uma frase do Halmos, > foi escrito pra matematica, mas vale pra quase tudo. > to study mathematics- don't just read it, fight it. > http://abstrusegoose.com/353 > > Abracos, > Valeria > > 2011/8/10 Joao Marcos <[email protected]> > >> Olá, Francicleber: >> >> Feynman passou um tempo no Brasil entre 1950 (ano em que Bertrand >> Russell ganhou seu prêmio Nobel em Literatura) e 1951, se não me >> engano. O texto que você copiou está no capítulo "O Americano, Outra >> Vez!" (sim, o título em português é do original). >> >> Pessoalmente, não acho que a situação que ele denuncia tenha melhorado >> muito. Talvez até tenha piorado (quem antes aprendia sem entender, >> hoje nem chega a aprender!). Também não acho que vamos conseguir >> melhorar isto enquanto os professores forem escolhidos, em geral, >> entre os menos capazes entre nós, o povo brasileiro. Com sorte, >> contudo, serei eu apenas um pessimista. >> >> Abraços, >> JM >> >> >> 2011/8/10 Francicleber M. Ferreira <[email protected]>: >> > Olá pessoal, >> > >> > um amigo meu pergunta se o que é relatado no excerto abaixo, >> > aparentemente retirado do livro "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" >> > by Richard P. Feynman >> > (http://lib.ru/ANEKDOTY/FEINMAN/feinman_engl.txt), de fato ocorreu, se >> > esse quadro é representativo do ensino superior da época (a propósito, >> > que época é essa?) e como está hoje? Eu particularmente gostaria de >> > saber as respostas a essas perguntas tanto no âmbito do ensino >> > superior como um todo, no subgrupo das ciências exatas e em particular >> > na Física. Eu acho que nas boas universidades do Brasil, em particular >> > nas federais, a situação não é mais essa, estou enganado? Me parece >> > ainda que há mais um aspecto a ser considerado, a saber, a formação >> > dos professores no país. Qual era e qual é a situação nos cursos de >> > licenciatura e de bacharelado? Se alguém souber mais detalhes sobre >> > essa história, tipo onde exatamente isso aconteceu, também gostaria de >> > saber. >> > >> > Esse meu amigo conta que, segundo sua avaliação, esse quadro também >> > podia ser encontrado em algumas universidades russas há pouco tempo >> > atrás. >> > >> > Sei que o tópico não se encaixa exatamente no escopo da lista, mas >> > creio que possa ser do interesse de alguns, dado que boa parte dos >> > integrantes da lista estão de alguma forma ligados a instituições de >> > ensino superior, dentre os quais muitos são professores. >> > >> > Desde já grato pelas respostas! >> > >> > Francicleber >> > >> > >> > >> > In regard to education in Brazil, I had a very interesting >> experience. >> > I was teaching a group of students who would ultimately become >> teachers, >> > since at that time there were not many opportunities in Brazil for a >> highly >> > trained person in science. These students had already had many courses, >> and >> > this was to be their most advanced course in electricity and >> magnetism -- >> > Maxwell's equations, and so on. >> > The university was located in various office buildings throughout >> the >> > city, and the course I taught met in a building which overlooked the >> bay. >> > I discovered a very strange phenomenon: I could ask a question, >> which >> > the students would answer immediately. But the next time I would ask >> the >> > question -- the same subject, and the same question, as far as I could >> tell >> > -- they couldn't answer it at all! For instance, one time I was >> talking >> > about polarized light, and I gave them all some strips of polaroid. >> > Polaroid passes only light whose electric vector is in a >> certain >> > direction, so I explained how you could tell which way the light >> is >> > polarized from whether the polaroid is dark or light. >> > We first took two strips of polaroid and rotated them until they >> let >> > the most light through. From doing that we could tell that the two >> strips >> > were now admitting light polarized in the same direction -- what >> passed >> > through one piece of polaroid could also pass through the other. But >> then I >> > asked them how one could tell the absolute direction of polarization, >> for a >> > single piece of polaroid. >> > They hadn't any idea. >> > I knew this took a certain amount of ingenuity, so I gave them a >> hint: >> > "Look at the light reflected from the bay outside." >> > Nobody said anything. >> > Then I said, "Have you ever heard of Brewster's Angle?" >> > "Yes, sir! Brewster's Angle is the angle at which light reflected >> from >> > a medium with an index of refraction is completely polarized." >> > "And which way is the light polarized when it's reflected?" >> > "The light is polarized perpendicular to the plane of reflection, >> sir." >> > Even now, I have to think about it; they knew it cold! They even knew >> the >> > tangent of the angle equals the index! >> > I said, "Well?" >> > Still nothing. They had just told me that light reflected from a >> medium >> > with an index, such as the bay outside, was polarized; they had even >> told me >> > which way it was polarized. >> > I said, "Look at the bay outside, through the polaroid. Now turn >> the >> > polaroid." >> > "Ooh, it's polarized!" they said. >> > After a lot of investigation, I finally figured out that the >> students >> > had memorized everything, but they didn't know what anything meant. >> When >> > they heard "light that is reflected from a medium with an index," >> they >> > didn't know that it meant a material such as water. They didn't know >> that >> > the "direction of the light" is the direction in which you see >> something >> > when you're looking at it, and so on. Everything was entirely memorized, >> yet >> > nothing had been translated into meaningful words. So if I asked, >> "What is >> > Brewster's Angle?" I'm going into the computer with the right keywords. >> But >> > if I say, "Look at the water," nothing happens -- they don't have >> anything >> > under "Look at the water"! >> > Later I attended a lecture at the engineering school. The lecture >> went >> > like this, translated into English: "Two bodies... are >> considered >> > equivalent... if equal torques... will produce... equal acceleration. >> Two >> > bodies, are considered equivalent, if equal torques, will produce >> equal >> > acceleration." The students were all sitting there taking dictation, >> and >> > when the professor repeated the sentence, they checked it to make sure >> they >> > wrote it down all right. Then they wrote down the next sentence, and on >> and >> > on. I was the only one who knew the professor was talking about objects >> with >> > the same moment of inertia, and it was hard to figure out. >> > I didn't see how they were going to learn anything from that. Here >> he >> > was talking about moments of inertia, but there was no discussion about >> how >> > hard it is to push a door open when you put heavy weights on the >> outside, >> > compared to when you put them near the hinge -- nothing! >> > After the lecture, I talked to a student: "You take all those notes >> -- >> > what do you do with them?" >> > "Oh, we study them," he says. "We'll have an exam." >> > "What will the exam be like?" >> > "Very easy. I can tell you now one of the questions." He looks at >> his >> > notebook and says, " 'When are two bodies equivalent?' And the answer >> is, >> > 'Two bodies are considered equivalent if equal torques will produce >> equal >> > acceleration.' " So, you see, they could pass the examinations, and >> "learn" >> > all this stuff, and not know anything at all, except what they >> had >> > memorized. >> > Then I went to an entrance exam for students coming into >> the >> > engineering school. It was an oral exam, and I was allowed to listen to >> it. >> > One of the students was absolutely super: He answered everything nifty! >> The >> > examiners asked him what diamagnetism was, and he answered it >> perfectly. >> > Then they asked, "When light comes at an angle through a sheet of >> material >> > with a certain thickness, and a certain index N, what happens to the >> light?" >> > "It comes out parallel to itself, sir -- displaced." >> > "And how much is it displaced?" >> > "I don't know, sir, but I can figure it out." So he figured it out. >> He >> > was very good. But I had, by this time, my suspicions. >> > After the exam I went up to this bright young man, and explained to >> him >> > that I was from the United States, and that I wanted to ask him >> some >> > questions that would not affect the result of his examination in any >> way. >> > The first question I ask is, "Can you give me some example of a >> diamagnetic >> > substance?" >> > "No." >> > Then I asked, "If this book was made of glass, and I was looking >> at >> > something on the table through it, what would happen to the image >> if I >> > tilted the glass?" >> > "It would be deflected, sir, by twice the angle that you've turned >> the >> > book." >> > I said, "You haven't got it mixed up with a mirror, have you?" >> > "No, sir!" >> > He had just told me in the examination that the light would >> be >> > displaced, parallel to itself, and therefore the image would move >> over to >> > one side, but would not be turned by any angle. He had even figured out >> how >> > much it would be displaced, but he didn't realize that a piece of glass >> is a >> > material with an index, and that his calculation had applied to my >> question. >> > I taught a course at the engineering school on mathematical methods >> in >> > physics, in which I tried to show how to solve problems by trial and >> error. >> > It's something that people don't usually learn, so I began with some >> simple >> > examples of arithmetic to illustrate the method. I was surprised that >> only >> > about eight out of the eighty or so students turned in the first >> assignment. >> > So I gave a strong lecture about having to actually try it, not just >> sit >> > back and watch me do it. >> > After the lecture some students came up to me in a little >> delegation, >> > and told me that I didn't understand the backgrounds that they have, >> that >> > they can study without doing the problems, that they have already >> learned >> > arithmetic, and that this stuff was beneath them. >> > So I kept going with the class, and no matter how complicated >> or >> > obviously advanced the work was becoming, they were never handing a >> damn >> > thing in. Of course I realized what it was: They couldn't do it! >> > One other thing I could never get them to do was to ask >> questions. >> > Finally, a student explained it to me: "If I ask you a question during >> the >> > lecture, afterwards everybody will be telling me, 'What are you wasting >> our >> > time for in the class? We're trying to learn something. And you're >> stopping >> > him by asking a question'." >> > It was a kind of one-upmanship, where nobody knows what's going on, >> and >> > they'd put the other one down as if they did know. They all fake that >> they >> > know, and if one student admits for a moment that something is >> confusing by >> > asking a question, the others take a high-handed attitude, acting as if >> it's >> > not confusing at all, telling him that he's wasting their time. >> > I explained how useful it was to work together, to discuss >> the >> > questions, to talk it over, but they wouldn't do that either, because >> they >> > would be losing face if they had to ask someone else. It was pitiful! >> All >> > the work they did, intelligent people, but they got themselves into >> this >> > funny state of mind, this strange kind of self-propagating "education" >> which >> > is meaningless, utterly meaningless! >> > At the end of the academic year, the students asked me to give a >> talk >> > about my experiences of teaching in Brazil. At the talk there would be >> not >> > only students, but professors and government officials, so I made >> them >> > promise that I could say whatever I wanted. They said, "Sure. Of >> course. >> > It's a free country." >> > So I came in, carrying the elementary physics textbook that they >> used >> > in the first year of college. They thought this book was especially >> good >> > because it had different kinds of typeface -- bold black for the >> most >> > important things to remember, lighter for less important things, and so >> on. >> > Right away somebody said, "You're not going to say anything bad >> about >> > the textbook, are you? The man who wrote it is here, and everybody >> thinks >> > it's a good textbook." >> > "You promised I could say whatever I wanted." >> > The lecture hall was full. I started out by defining science as >> an >> > understanding of the behavior of nature. Then I asked, "What is a >> good >> > reason for teaching science? Of course, no country can consider >> itself >> > civilized unless... yak, yak, yak." They were all sitting there >> nodding, >> > because I know that's the way they think. >> > Then I say, "That, of course, is absurd, because why should we feel >> we >> > have to keep up with another country? We have to do it for a good >> reason, a >> > sensible reason; not just because other countries do." Then I talked >> about >> > the utility of science, and its contribution to the improvement of the >> human >> > condition, and all that -- I really teased them a little bit. >> > Then I say, "The main purpose of my talk is to demonstrate to you >> that >> > no science is being taught in Brazil!" >> > I can see them stir, thinking, "What? No science? This is >> absolutely >> > crazy! We have all these classes." >> > So I tell them that one of the first things to strike me when I came >> to >> > Brazil was to see elementary school kids in bookstores, buying >> physics >> > books. There are so many kids learning physics in Brazil, beginning >> much >> > earlier than kids do in the United States, that it's amazing you don't >> find >> > many physicists in Brazil -- why is that? So many kids are working so >> hard, >> > and nothing comes of it. >> > Then I gave the analogy of a Greek scholar who loves the >> Greek >> > language, who knows that in his own country there aren't many >> children >> > studying Greek. But he comes to another country, where he is >> delighted to >> > find everybody studying Greek -- even the smaller kids in the >> elementary >> > schools. He goes to the examination of a student who is coming to get >> his >> > degree in Greek, and asks him, "What were Socrates' ideas on >> the >> > relationship between Truth and Beauty?" -- and the student can't >> answer. >> > Then he asks the student, "What did Socrates say to Plato in the >> Third >> > Symposium?" the student lights up and goes, "Brrrrrrrrr-up" -- he tells >> you >> > everything, word for word, that Socrates said, in beautiful Greek. >> > But what Socrates was talking about in the Third Symposium was >> the >> > relationship between Truth and Beauty! >> > What this Greek scholar discovers is, the students in another >> country >> > learn Greek by first learning to pronounce the letters, then the words, >> and >> > then sentences and paragraphs. They can recite, word for word, what >> Socrates >> > said, without realizing that those Greek words actually mean >> something. To >> > the student they are all artificial sounds. Nobody has ever translated >> them >> > into words the students can understand. >> > I said, "That's how it looks to me, when I see you teaching the >> kids >> > 'science' here in Brazil." (Big blast, right?) >> > Then I held up the elementary physics textbook they were using. >> "There >> > are no experimental results mentioned anywhere in this book, except in >> one >> > place where there is a ball, rolling down an inclined plane, in which >> it >> > says how far the ball got after one second, two seconds, three seconds, >> and >> > so on. The numbers have 'errors' in them -- that is, if you look at >> them, >> > you think you're looking at experimental results, because the numbers >> are a >> > little above, or a little below, the theoretical values. The book even >> talks >> > about having to correct the experimental errors -- very fine. The >> trouble >> > is, when you calculate the value of the acceleration constant from >> these >> > values, you get the right answer. But a ball rolling down an inclined >> plane, >> > if it is actually done, has an inertia to get it to turn, and will, if >> you >> > do the experiment, produce five-sevenths of the right answer, because of >> the >> > extra energy needed to go into the rotation of the ball. Therefore >> this >> > single example of experimental 'results' is obtained from a fake >> experiment. >> > Nobody had rolled such a ball, or they would never have gotten >> those >> > results! >> > "I have discovered something else," I continued. "By flipping the >> pages >> > at random, and putting my finger in and reading the sentences on that >> page, >> > I can show you what's the matter -- how it's not science, but >> memorizing, in >> > every circumstance. Therefore I am brave enough to flip through the >> pages >> > now, in front of this audience, to put my finger in, to read, and to >> show >> > you." >> > So I did it. Brrrrrrrup -- I stuck my finger in, and I started to >> read: >> > "Triboluminescence. Triboluminescence is the light emitted when crystals >> are >> > crushed..." >> > I said, "And there, have you got science? No! You have only told what >> a >> > word means in terms of other words. You haven't told anything about >> nature >> > -- what crystals produce light when you crush them, why they produce >> light. >> > Did you see any student go home and try it? He can't. >> > "But if, instead, you were to write, 'When you take a lump of sugar >> and >> > crush it with a pair of pliers in the dark, you can see a bluish flash. >> Some >> > other crystals do that too. Nobody knows why. The phenomenon is >> called >> > "triboluminescence." ' Then someone will go home and try it. Then >> there's an >> > experience of nature." I used that example to show them, but it didn't >> make >> > any difference where I would have put my finger in the book; it was >> like >> > that everywhere. >> > Finally, I said that I couldn't see how anyone could be educated >> by >> > this self-propagating system in which people pass exams, and teach >> others to >> > pass exams, but nobody knows anything. "However," I said, "I must be >> wrong. >> > There were two Students in my class who did very well, and one of >> the >> > physicists I know was educated entirely in Brazil. Thus, it must be >> possible >> > for some people to work their way through the system, bad as it is." >> > Well, after I gave the talk, the head of the science >> education >> > department got up and said, "Mr. Feynman has told us some things that >> are >> > very hard for us to hear, but it appears to be that he really loves >> science, >> > and is sincere in his criticism. Therefore, I think we should listen to >> him. >> > I came here knowing we have some sickness in our system of education; >> what I >> > have learned is that we have a cancer!" -- and he sat down. >> > That gave other people the freedom to speak out, and there was a >> big >> > excitement. Everybody was getting up and making suggestions. The >> students >> > got some committee together to mimeograph the lectures in advance, and >> they >> > got other committees organized to do this and that. >> > Then something happened which was totally unexpected for me. One of >> the >> > students got up and said, "I'm one of the two students whom Mr. >> Feynman >> > referred to at the end of his talk. I was not educated in Brazil; I >> was >> > educated in Germany, and I've just come to Brazil this year." >> > The other student who had done well in class had a similar thing >> to >> > say. And the professor I had mentioned got up and said, "I was educated >> here >> > in Brazil during the war, when, fortunately, all of the professors had >> left >> > the university, so I learned everything by reading alone. Therefore I >> was >> > not really educated under the Brazilian system." >> > I didn't expect that. I knew the system was bad, but 100 percent -- >> it >> > was terrible! >> > Since I had gone to Brazil under a program sponsored by the >> United >> > States Government, I was asked by the State Department to write a >> report >> > about my experiences in Brazil, so I wrote out the essentials of the >> speech >> > I had just given. I found out later through the grapevine that the >> reaction >> > of somebody in the State Department was, "That shows you how dangerous >> it is >> > to send somebody to Brazil who is so naive. Foolish fellow; he can >> only >> > cause trouble. He didn't understand the problems." Quite the >> contrary! I >> > think this person in the State Department was naive to think that >> because he >> > saw a university with a list of courses and descriptions, that's what >> it >> > was. >> > -- http://sequiturquodlibet.googlepages.com/ _______________________________________________ Logica-l mailing list [email protected] http://www.dimap.ufrn.br/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/logica-l
