Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
On Thu, Feb 24, 2005 at 09:22:29PM +0200, Shachar Shemesh wrote:
Still, I believe a bit more caution when passing judgment may have been in order.
Yes, but ..
But what if it IS a case of 100 identical machines, and a sysadmin group larger than one person?
Then it might be, ..
Is this anything particular to Sivan's approach, or is that a general observation on today's job market situation?A general observation on the job market.
According to CJI's February salary survey, the average salary for a system administrator is 12,000 (http://www.cji.co.il/cji05sal.txt). Care to explain what you base your data on?
CJI's salary survey has been skeewed as long as I have seen it. One it favors anglos.
Who have lower salaries?
Don't remember a single job that *required* that of me, contractually. YMMV, I guess.2. Every job I have held since 1980 EXCEPT at HUJI required me to keep my compensation secreet or be fired.
>Stuff about CJI being biased trim. So where's your data from?
Then maybe you are indeed overqualified for the job. The point I was trying to make was that the fact a certain job is not right for you is no reason to publicly ridicule someone.But are you a system administrator, or someone who has another skill set who can ACT as a system administrator? I guess this job is not aimed at programmers who want to double as sysadmins. Tough luck. This does not, however, mean it's a bad job, or a bad salary.It does for me, as I said to another poster I've been doing systems programing
etc, for 34 years longer than most people on this list have been alive.
... In any case, I wouldn't be surprised if Sivan refused to negotiate the terms on a public list.Neither would I.
Then why accuse him publicly of offering a job which requires it?
And, as I said before, knowing a little about the place in question means that I tend to think this specific extrapolation, done in public, towards a specific person, and without the least bit of solid data to go on, is really one you ought to apologize for.and people who drive badly are bad lovers. Ain't extrapolation a wonderful thing....Yes, but people who think that the system group is usless overhead tend
to think the same way about software licenses , etc.
Allow me to clarify. I don't think you should apologize because I think you made a wrong statement. It's not my word I'm asking you to go on. I think you should apologize because you made a public claim, specific toward someone, without any data that this is, indeed, that case.
For an example of how I do it, see:
The original claim: http://israblog.nana.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=35850&blogcode=1232290
The apology: http://israblog.nana.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=35850&blogcode=1235887
An hour later - the proof that the original claim was correct: http://israblog.nana.co.il/blogread.asp?blog=35850&blogcode=1235943
I'll repeat. I think the apology was the right thing to do despite the fact that the original claim turned out to be true. The very fact that it was made without sufficient data is enough to warrant one.
See above. If anyone is over-qualified to be a sysadmin on this list, it is you.Two questions. No, make that three.
1. You develop business plans. Why do you think you are qualified as a sysadmin for ANY salary? Also, if you got used to the kind of salaries people with the title you boast get, it's no wonder that you find the salary Sivan is offering low.
See above. If anyone is qualified to be a sysadmin on this list it is me. :-)
I've been a sysadmin in my past as well. I would not work for those salaries as well. This is, however, because I am unfit for the job, not because there is anything wrong with the job.
More like "strongly implied". It was a presupposition in most of your original email.2. What makes you think they DON'T have a 2-3 sysadmins team?Never said.
I wasn't saying an NDA is a bad thing. You were. I was just pointing out that you were using the same tool you deemed so offensive.3. Most importantly, why the frontal attack? Especially since when you and I met professionally, a signed NDA was the very first thing you wanted. There is a proverb in Hebrew which I suspect is relevant here: "הפוסל במומו פוסל". I have no idea how to translate that reasonably.
Because I was asking you for your ... (rest of explanation of what an NDA is trimmed).
This sentence is the most important one, I guess. At least the way I read your email, yes you were. You were making direct linkage between his job offer and previous bad employees you've had. You presupposed, through your entire email, that all bad experience you've had will continue if you take this job. I think you were. Some other people seem to think so too.I wasn't attacking Sivan,
Well, that assertation of yours is the least offending one in the entire email, and seems counter to objective sources, as well as personal experience that I, Sivan, Ariel, Ira, and others have. I'll say this again, though. If you only commented about the salary (as opposed to the kind of people who would work for that salary, the kind of employer who offers such a salary, and so on), I would not have written my previous email.I was just pointing out that the market price for top level people is a lot more than $15k.
If he expected to get someoneExcellent way of putting your opinion. I only wish you had chosen this way for the previous email.
for that he was most likley IMHO mistaken.
This is a discussion email group. Attacking people is not productive to anyone. Let's try to keep a respective tone here.
Geoff.
Shachar
-- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html
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