At Sun, 31 Oct 2004 22:27:12 +0200, Amit Aronovitch wrote: > > First of all, thanks Tzafrir - I was not aware that the lyx and SI > variants had any bidi chars in them > (I do remember googlin and greppin around before starting to mess with > symbol files - probably did not do that very well - since now I can > easily find the stuff you mention...) > > Herouth Maoz wrote: > > > Actually, OpenOffice behaves better than you said. When you enter the > > characters you may get a square, but as soon as you put some text next > > to them, the squares disappear. At least that's what happens in my > > environment. > > > Did you try the PDF symbol? It seems that at least with the default > fonts, PDF stays a visible square, while others appear as specialized > cursor-like graphics. >
OO shows me the RLM and LRM characters as a small right-angled arrow. Took some time to figure out I need to put one before the text and one after. Also tried with LRE/PDF and LRO/PDF, those showed up as squares. The problem is that they also showed up on the pdf exported output (RLM/LRM as arrow and LRE/LRO/PDF as spaces). How do I hide them in the output ? (debian OO 1.1.2) Also, what is the difference between all of these? Mainly LRE vs. LRO are puzzling. > > By the way, the lyx keyboard variant only contains the marking > > characters, not the embedding characters. > > IS mode too. So - my messing with symbol files was not a total waste of > time after all :-) ... > > > I had a discussion about this in Whatsup this week. I see embedding as > > more natural, as you don't have to think "Hmm, BiDi problem. If I put > > an English character somewhere, it should solve it, now what is the > > proper way to put the extra character?". You just embed the whole > > English phrase. > > > What's more natural is arguable and subjective. However - LRE/RLE are > more *powerful* . There's stuff that just can't be done with the mark > symbols alone. > For example try typing the following line (I do hope the listbot and > mailers won't mess up my UTF8 ... ): > ------------> > The message â"××× ×× ××× Enter ×××××"â should be displayed > <------------ > I can't see how it could be done with Mark symbols alone. > With RLE-PDF it's trivial. > > > I just wonder, if I find how to incorporate the LRE, RLE and PDF > > characters into the lyx variant, how I'm going to push it to the > > world. The lyx and SI variants are distributed with every Linux, or at > > least with every Linux that has KDE. > > It's not related to KDE (and really should not be bound to any specific > toolkit). It's a standard *Unicode * feature - available on any system > using X11 ever since it started supporting Unicode. > As I now learned, the standard israeli keyboard layout in main XFree86 > distro started having the "Mark" bidi symbols ever since version 4.3 > IGLU FAQ:xkb > <http://www.iglu.org.il/faq/index.cgi?_recurse=1&file=8#file_86> > > About pushing it to the world - this mainly concerns the Hebrew and > Arabic speaking countries. > As far as the Hebrew-Speaking Country is concerned, at least, I believe > Tzafrir is our man here (pls correct me if I'm wrong, but he might have > had something to do with the fact that the lyx variant found it's way to > upstream Xfree86 il keyboard). > > For starters, we can agree on preferred keys to put them on, and offer > it in a modified version of the script I provided in the previous > message. The benefit of this script is that it's simple, self > explanatory, and can be easily operated by newbie linuxers (just drop it > in /usr/local/bin and type bidisetup - in any user login) - it supports > easy install/uninstall/enable/disable without having to type xkb > commands or manually edit keyboard files. > > This way a larger croud can experiment with it and give feedback. For > the moment I'll stick with my original (inconvenient & arbitrary) choice > of keys - because Tzafrir's layout does not include the remaining two > unicode bidichars (RLO & LRO), and I believe we should offer our testers > the full range of unicode bidi. > > This time I'll provide the file via http (the listbot does not seem to > like my attachments) > http://amitar.parser.co.il/bidisetup > ( yeah, I know, I should add friendly html descriptions and stuff, > preferably in hebrew ... ) > > pls feel free to edit/mangle/distribute this file in any way you want. > > > By the way, I think this is not the ultimate solution to this problem. > > Because the characters are invisible, it makes editing them very hard. > > I prefer the word processor itself to handle this - as Word does in > > Windows and Mellel does on MacOS X. In Word you mark spans of text as > > English or Hebrew and it > > > True - we're talking just the basic OS/WinSystem support here. These > should support "unicode plaintext" in a way that would allow typing > i9nal text in a reasonable way in text consoles and simple text editors. > I think that means that bidi chars should be invisible - like tabs and > newlines are in text mode. > > As for Word-Processors (and WYSIWYM Document Preparation Systems ;-) ), > I think they could (and should) allow a more advanced approach: You > should be able to see a graphical representation of the bidi chars (e.g. > in OpenOffice - in that mode where you can see the enters and tabs), and > you should be able to easily switch to WYG view, where they are invisible. > However - this is application stuff and could only be achieved > app-by-app (well - not exactly - if we fix the basic text-editing > widgets of Toolkits like GTK+ & QT, we'll probably affect a whole bunch > of Gnome & KDE apps at once. > > > > ================================================================= > To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with > the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command > echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > This Mail Was Scanned By Mail-seCure System > at the Tel-Aviv University CC. > ================================================================To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
