On Mon, 23 Sep 2002, Nadav Har'El wrote: > > This essay is not just about women in Linux. Many of the points > > are relevant to newbies in general, and to women in a mainly-male > > environment in general. > > For example, one of the items is "Don't treat women stereotypically" and > another is "Do treat women like everyone else". Makes perfect sense. > Then come sections like "Don't micro-specialize or obsess about the same > topics" (because "... most women don't have the endless interest in minutiae > that men often display"). What is that, if not stereotypes about women, > claiming that women's brains are somehow "wired" differently?? > One might claim that this "endless interest in minutiae" is what gets people > certain types of technical jobs. Does this mean that women cannot hold such > jobs?
I never said it was flawless. It is the basic problem with talking about women: if you are trying to make some point, you are bound to tongue slip and say something not PC (unless you claim that men and women are exactly the same). This point of minutiae details is actually relevant to newbies. If you are not familiar with the fine details, and this is what all the people around you speak of, it will be very hard to blend in. > Sorry, but I don't understand what the "being friendly to newbies" has to > do with women. It is a good advice on its own, but why mention this together > with the issue of women? Does this imply that most women cannot be confident, linuxchix is about women in linux, but it is also about forming new LUGs. This is why I mentioned in the frst place that many of those points are relevant to newbies in general. (Alternatively, to people familiar with Linux, but new at your LUG meetings). > > Taking this question more down to earth, How many women do *you* know that > could be interested in Linux right now (e.g., because they already like > computers and care about freedom) but stay away from our meetings because > of the atmosphere in those meetings? May I dare guess that most women have > been unfortunately driven away from taking interest in Linux, or computers > in general, or engineering in more generality, in a much earlier age? > This is also true of most men, but I guess less than women. I can't think of any. But this is due to the fact that I find myself in circles of technical people, to begin with. (Those circles are mainly male circles in all the fields I take interest in). I agree that the driving is usually done at an early stage, and most women do not get to even taste what a LUG is like, but- Once they do get to a LUG meeting, it is not easy to stick around. As for me, it took quite some time to dare to come to Linux meetings on my own (i.e., not as sombody's date ), and to dare to express in public. Another imporant aspect is the pass making. Taking the woman who is interested in Linux first as a woman, and only later as a linux person. The first time I went to Haifux, the only person who talked to me was trying to hit on me. The first (and only) time I went to Linux-BIU, some guy I did not know asked me to cut the cake for everybody, since I am a woman. Then he said: "So what are *you* doing here?" To me it sounds like one of the two: either as "who are you with?", or as "do you mean you actually know what linux is?". I don't know which one I prefer less. On the IRC, every now and then a new person joins #iglu on EFNET, notices the nick of "ladypine", and says something like "wow, there are linux chicks here!". Then he begins to question about my age and location (aka ASL). These things transmit the message that the woman is not taken seriously as a linux person, but only as a geek woman, who is potentially a good girl friend. The other side of the coin is when I get to read words, which should be replaced by @!#%*& signs, on #iglu for being a woman who a actually opens her mouth and helps an occasional newbie. I want to stress, though, that those incedents are rather rare, and usually there is a decent person around (falcon, mulix, bommer, dexter) to kick that person from the channel. And Hets: The fact that you almost managed to count the women on linux-il means something, does it not? try doing it with the men... -- Orna. | http://tx.technion.ac.il/~agmon The trouble with a kitten is that Eventually, it becomes a cat. --Ogden Nash ================================================================= To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
