Dear Oded

Well, I was impressed with your profound adsl knowledge.
In most things you were right, I just wanted to comment about
the money Bezeq had invested (and still investing).
Do you know how many dslams Bezeq has bought?
>From what I know, Bezeq bought equipment from BINAT (Alcatel
distributors in Israel) at more the $100 million -
that includes all the dslams, modems and more.
Let us not forget all the other investments on the surface
and all the time and efforts that Bezeq invested in the
adsl experiment...

I am not Bezeq atturney and like you - I do think that they
are playing with their customers.
People are not stupid - and they know the qualities and advantages
of the ATM network. They also know that Bezeq are limitating them
in the upstream and downstream - and they do tend to charge more
for extra uploading for the demanding customers in the future!

This is actually Bezeq's main mistake. Soon (How soon???), the
competitors will get into the market and Bezeq will pay the price
of their present arrogance.

Just for the sake of argument - let us not forget that Bezeq
is a pure business and their main goal is to get the most out
of their investments. Most companies do it - eather their
customers are not aware of this, or they are simpley mazochists -
or - they just don't have any other chice!!!

Eldad


>From: "Oded Arbel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "eldad moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>CC: "Linux-IL mailing list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: adsl
>Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2000 15:21:15 +0200
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "eldad moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Regarding the prices, well - I do thing it is expensive,
> >but you have to realise that Bezeq invested more then
> >$200 million on the adsl infrastructure !!!
> >The prices will get down at some stage...
>How did you get the $200 million figure ? the whole point in ADSL being is
>that you don't need to upgrade the infrastructure - you just move 
>everything
>on the twisted pairs any user gets !
>The only investment Bezeq need doing is buying DSLAMs, which (for the 
>10,000
>switchboards that should be available for ADSL by march, as Bezeq claims)
>would mean $20000 for a DSLAM set . I _know_ that a DSLAM doesn't cost
>anywhere near that figure.
>The only other erquirement for ADSL (the other two being a normal twisted
>pair copper line to the subscriber and a DSLAM in the switchboard), is very
>fast ether channel between the switchboards, some which bezeq has for last
>decade or so. so I have no idea where you got this nice and round figure
>from (maybe from Bezeq reports to the "Knesset" ;-) but it sure doesn't
>sound realistic.
>
>The other opinions that you describe here are also a bit lacking on the
>factual side :
> >The major advantage of the adsl is the downstream,
> >which is higher them all other options at the market
> >at the moment.
> >Each customer gets 3mb (mega bits) of downloading
> >and it's the fastest internet around at the moment.
>ADSL is up to 8MBit downstream for a very short connection (about a mile or
>less from the switchbaord) which almost any urban Bezeq user fall under 
>that
>category, or 6Mbit for twice the distance - which covers all the other
>cases, except a very limited number of special cases which wont have ADSL
>available anyway.  Bezeq limits the downstream to 2Mbit (and not 3 like you
>claim), because they're cheap and don't want to upgrade their internal
>network (see the bogus $200 mil again).
>
> >The upstream is 64kb to all of the customers!
> >No one has more then that.
> >About the future - nothing is clear yet -
> >especially not an extra cost for more uploading
> >capacity.
> >(Why the hell do you need  more then that -
> >how much uploading you do anyhow...)
>most users on the net (ok, most of the users in the world - less sure about
>israel) aren't passive users - this isn't television (which is one of many
>points where Bezeq fails to understand the medium). end users do upload
>stuff - files to web servers,  they stream live media from web cams and
>"internet radio" web casts, they video chat, swap media file using media
>exchange networks like Gnutella and do other stuff - all require large
>upstream pipe - and ADSL technology does allow for an upstream channel of
>upto 1.5Mbit.
>
> >In any case - it is completely not to the point to
> >talk about adsl and isdn in the same breath!!!
> >
> >adsl is a pure direct digital connection between
> >customer's line and the operatoin port through the
> >ATM network (which is the fastest network around).
>ISDN is also a digital network, similar in concept to ADSL, but utilisizing
>just the frequency range used by normal voice - which limits its bandwidth
>to the theoretical 64k of normal voice range.
>
>ADSL by itself does not require the ATM fast switching, it's just that its
>nicer to have the ADSL throuput channeled using ATM, and it allows Bezeq to
>force the ISPs to buy expensive ATM connection from ... you guessed it -
>Bezeq :-)
>There are other forms of networking that are very fast (I think some are
>even faster the ATM), all suitable to be the backend for ADSL.
>Also, the digital channel formed by ADSL is just between the ADSL modem and
>the DSLAM. the other parts (the connection from the ADSL modem to the
>consumers computer, and between the DSLAM to the ISP) are composed of
>different ethers - the only thing connecting them is the VPN software -
>which could run on any other medium - for example , an analog modem.
>
>The ADSL prices are just the highest that Bezeq allows itself to charge and
>still thinks it will get customers. if it will charge more, it will be
>cheaper for customers to buy some otehr connectivity, like FR; and if home
>users will buy FR, it will grind the already saturated FR network to a 
>halt,
>forcing Bezeq to  -- good grief! -- invest some more money in expanding its
>internal network.
>
>I'm not saying Bezeq is the devil incarnate, just that they're not the
>farest people around. I guess that competetion will do good to the nice
>Bezeq folks too (and I don't mean "fast" internet access using the cable
>system).
>
>As it stands right now - I'll stick with ISDN, maybe even my full 256K,
>which according to my latest calculations will be just a bit more expensive
>then ADSL, but will give me 4 times the upstream rate - good enough to run 
>a
>web server.
>
>That's my rant - sorry , I had to discharge some steam :-)
>
>Oded
>
>...
>The point of philosophy is to start with something so simple as not to seem
>worth
>stating, and to end with something so paradoxical that no one will believe
>it.
>  -- Bertrand Russell, The Philosophy of Logical Atomism
>
>
>
>

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