Hi Aaron,
I apologize too if I'm going to use words that can appear a bit rude. This
is only for making the goal clearer, and I state again that without your
great help I could not do my editor.
Now: there's a misunderstanding in your reply too.
I'm not focusing on the *manual* tweaking. The opposite is true: I'm
focusing on the *automatic* tweaking.
It appears to me that you all are convinced that I want to bypass this
Lilypond feature in order to make a WYSIWYG editor.
That's absolutely false. WYSIWYG editors are IMHO too much time consuming.
Then I want to put in my editor the automatic algos of Lilypond. X/Y-offset
is one of them. I'm not interested in *manual* shifting the brackets. My
editor already does that with the extra-offset properties, and it works.
Instead, I'm focusing on the automatic placement of the other near objects
as a consequence ("avoid collisions method"). Doing that manually is very
tedious and I want to avoid it.
Don't interpret the thread as a "automatic vs manual placement method*;
instead see it as "automatic 1) vs automatic 2) placement".
In addition: you say that you disagree that everyone has to do fine tuning.
I think that the important thing is to make not me or you to do fine
tuning. The important thing is to allow *Lilypond* to make it, if required.
It would be really a waste that a so wonderful tool can't accomplish that
only because a dummy value is not pulled out.
Without a proper behavior of the "\offset" command you cannot do nor the
automatic 2) placement, nor a fine tuning.
Best,
Paolo
It seems
(I apologize if that
is coming across sarcastically, but I am afraid I lack better
wordsmithing.)
On Wed, Jan 15, 2020 at 4:50 AM Aaron Hill <lilyp...@hillvisions.com> wrote:
> On 2020-01-14 7:10 pm, Paolo Prete wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 9:08 PM Aaron Hill <lilyp...@hillvisions.com>
> > wrote:
> >> I am not connected to the world of modern notation, but I
> >> cannot envision any musical meaning for the exact vertical position of
> >> an OttavaBracket.
> >
> > This is not true. There are many and many cases in which you need to
> > tune
> > the position of the ottava bracket as well as any other bracket.
> > And I'm not talking about modern notation. Even in nineteenth century
> > notation this is absolutely necessary.
> > The first obvious example is when you have slurs near brackets. Which
> > happen *very frequently*
> > In this cases a common algo is to:
> >
> > 1) choose which of the two objects has to be placed above (there's not
> > a
> > rule for that: it depends on aesthetical choices)
>
> That was what I suspected. This is aesthetics, not semantics. The
> vertical position of a bracket carries no musical intention; unlike how
> the vertical position of a note head relates to pitch. In my mind,
> LilyPond syntax is largely about communicating the musical content and
> letting the software deal with putting the right ink on the page in the
> right spot.
>
> That is not to say that aesthetics does not matter, and LilyPond should
> strive to meet what is generally considered good and pleasing to the
> eye. But in order for aesthetics to be codified, one just needs to
> surface all of the important aspects and constraints, and it sounds like
> LilyPond does not yet have that level of information. As such, you are
> finding it necessary to step in and shift things around.
>
> Side note: I should be clear that I am not "against" the prospect of
> manual tweaking tools. Even if it were just your life that was made
> easier--and it is clear you are not the only one who would benefit--then
> such tools are justified. But my view and practice of software
> engineering is largely focused on automation and getting the computer to
> do the heavy lifting. I dislike manual tweaking, as I have wasted away
> many hours on such details. For my own sanity and productivity, I have
> to restrain myself. As such, I very much need LilyPond to be able to
> make the smart decisions on my behalf. That is why I am trying to
> defend getting the automatic parts working better; but I need to be more
> mindful to not hinder progress on the manual parts.
>
> > 2) move them according to decision 1) and then *tune* their coordinates
> > (which is tedious even with WYSIWYG editors, and requires
> > trial-and-error
> > even with them!).
> > Please note that you can't simply say: "ok, let's move this up and this
> > down and all is done". You have to make heavy micro-tuning as a
> > consequence.
>
> I would disagree with the notion that everyone has to do fine tuning. I
> certainly do nothing of the sort in my work, but I do not work on the
> same type of projects. My needs and requirements are quite likely much
> less strict. When it comes to the matter of manual tweaking, my use
> cases are largely irrelevant. I should, therefore, really bow out of
> this conversation as I am not the target audience and am probably doing
> a better job of muddying the waters.
>
>
> -- Aaron Hill
>
>
