Hi Chuck,
On 3 Jul 2010, at 22:34, Charles Wilson wrote:
> It's non-timely and off-point "reviews" that I tire of.
>
> The non-timely bit is just a reflection of the manpower and free time
> issues that all open source projects are subject to, so that kinda goes
> with the territory. Nobody likes it, but...you just gotta live with it.
>
> By "off-point" I mean discussing non-germane or wishlist items as part
> of a review. If the reviewer isn't VERY careful, such off-topic dicta
> can appear to imply that acceptance of a particular patch is predicated
> on solving longstanding wishlist items or software design misfeatures
> that long predate the patch in question.
>
> Most potential contributors -- myself included -- are scratching their
> own itch: X doesn't work, and I want to fix it. It's discouraging to be
> told (or THINK you are told) "we won't fix X until you or somebody else
> fixes huge, gaping, gargantuan problems Y and Z. Those problems are
> really hard to solve, and have existed for years. They are SO hard that
> none of US experts have even tried to tackle it. BUT...we won't accept
> your patch for X until somebody steps up to the plate for Y and Z"
>
> Which...sounds a whole lot like "We appreciate the submission of your
> manuscript "The Life and Times of an New York Meter Maid". However, at
> this time there are no opportunities for additional entries in our New
> York True Life book series. Thank you for your interest in Bob's
> Publishing Company, and Keep Writing!"
>
> Unless the contributor of patch X goes off to scratch YOUR itch
> regarding Y and Z. That's not the way free software contributors are
> best motivated.
>
> On 6/28/2010 3:23 AM, Gary V. Vaughan wrote:
>> Nevertheless, please do remember that it is a *review*, and if you find
>> yourself disagreeing with something (excepting an outright veto of course),
>> Ralf and I are both acutely aware that you are the one doing the work on
>> these patches and the last thing we want to do is retard the progress of
>> Libtool on Windows, so please don't be afraid to say "on balance, I'd
>> rather see this patch move Libtool forward in some small way without
>> addressing issue X right now". Often, we'll concede in exchange for a
>> TODO item! :)
>
> That's an...interesting take. I've never assumed that ANY contribution
> would be acceptable unless it received an actual approval by a
> maintainer. I mean, really: here's this patch, and no single maintainer
> has endorsed it without some significant objection -- and I should feel
> free as a non-maintainer to say "well, I disagree, so I'm pushing anyway"??
Just to clarify, that isn't what I meant -- rather, "well, I disagree, and
as you can see, despite its faults, patch X alone already makes things
less bad than they were previously. Is it okay if I push X in its current
state, and then tackle Y later? I've no inclination to work on Z, but
I'll put a reference to this thread in libtool/TODO so it isn't entirely
forgotten."
And I believe that we'll often say "sure", or "good point, go ahead".
> Maybe you mean "after a few more rounds of negotiation on the mailing
> list, maintainers may acquiesce with reservation to an un-revised
> version of particular patch"...
That too.
>> On 28 Jun 2010, at 13:10, Ralf Wildenhues wrote:
>>> * Charles Wilson wrote on Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 12:05:40AM CEST:
>>>> On 6/27/2010 4:43 PM, Ralf Wildenhues wrote:
>>>>> I don't see this method as the new method of choice. We already have a
>>>>> mechanism for years to transport values to the libtool script with
>>>>> _LT_DECLs and _LT_TAGDECLs, and at least for small code snippets,
>>>>
>>>> Yeah, that's the problem.
>>
>> I wrote _LT_DECL and _LT_TAGDECL to propagate shell variable declarations to
>> the libtool script, and I fear it will behave badly if we try to use that
>> mechanism for shoehorning anything else through, especially because it works
>> by doing a *lot* of booking-keeping at m4 time.
>
> That's what I thought. Windows postinstall_cmds is pretty much the
> outer limit, IMO:
>
> postinstall_cmds="base_file=\\\`basename \\\${file}\\\`~
> dlpath=\\\`\$SHELL 2>&1 -c '. \$dir/'\\\${base_file}'i; echo
> \\\$dlname'\\\`~
> dldir=\$destdir/\\\`dirname \\\$dlpath\\\`~
> test -d \\\$dldir || mkdir -p \\\$dldir~
> \$install_prog \$dir/\$dlname \\\$dldir/\$dlname~
> chmod a+x \\\$dldir/\$dlname~
> if test -n '\$stripme' && test -n '\$striplib'; then
> eval '\$striplib \\\$dldir/\$dlname' || exit \\\$?;
> fi"
Agreed.
>> _LT_PROG_XSI_REPLACE is designed for swapping out fallback implementations
>> of full functions (suitably decorated) for more efficient implementations
>> based on the build-time environment. I think that is exactly what you're
>> trying to do, but it seems to me like you might be able to work more
>> effectively in reverse: by putting the full Windows required implementations
>> into ltmain.m4sh, and using _LT_PROG_XSI_REPLACE to replace them with
>> stubs when configure is not building on (or for!!) a Windows machine?
>
> Well, my version _LT_PROG_FUNCTION_REPLACE is pretty slow: given the
> issues I had with using sed to "insert" really complex function bodies
> with internal quoting and their own sed scripts, I had to use the old
> "copy part of the lt output, insert the new content, copy the rest of
> the lt output" method.
>
> Since that's really slow...I figured only windows $hosts should pay that
> penalty (even if the penalty only occurs during LT_OUTPUT).
...which is why I suggested having the complex, hard-to-quote-properly
implementations written directly into ltmain.m4sh, and then using
_LT_PROG_XSI_REPLACE to overwrite them with stubs at configure time.
>> (At that point, we should come up with a better name, and changing the
>> decorator strings to match. The "XSI" is already a misnomer now that I'm
>> using it for `+=' and ${foo:n:m} constructions.)
>
> Ack -- that's why my version was named _LT_PROG_FUNCTION_REPLACE (the
> other was that I needed a different internal implementation of that
> macro, as described above).
Then I can use _LT_PROG_FUNCTION_REPLACE as the new name for existing
_LT_PROG_XSI_REPLACE?
> But...according to Ralf's message, this discussion is OBE. I'll revert
> back to a revised version of the 'take 7' patch.
OBE? Order of the British Empire? Out of Body Experience?
Cheers,
--
Gary V. Vaughan (g...@gnu.org)
