Which has the most complete KR-2S wood kit (which would you recommend)? Looks like the price is about the same. Getting closer to pulling the trigger!
Dave On Apr 14, 2012, at 11:44 PM, krnet-requ...@mylist.net wrote: > Send KRnet mailing list submissions to > kr...@mylist.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > krnet-requ...@mylist.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > krnet-ow...@mylist.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Belly Board (laser...@juno.com) > 2. Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. (Dave_A) > 3. Re: Flaps vs. Belly Board (Peter Drake) > 4. RE: Flaps vs. Belly Board (Dan Heath) > 5. Re: Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > (Larry&Sallie Flesner) > 6. Re: Flaps vs. Belly Board (Mark Langford) > 7. RE: Flaps vs. Belly Board (Larry&Sallie Flesner) > 8. speed brake photos (Larry&Sallie Flesner) > 9. Re: Flaps vs. Belly Board (rdrace...@aol.com) > 10. Re: Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. (Dave_A) > 11. Fw: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board (Peter Drake) > 12. Re: Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > (Larry&Sallie Flesner) > 13. Re: Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > (Larry&Sallie Flesner) > 14. first flight problem (DAN INA GLANDT) > 15. HI (Paolo Cavazzuti) > 16. HI (Paolo Cavazzuti) > 17. Fw: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board (Peter Drake) > 18. Re: Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. (Al Hawkins) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:13:30 -0700 > From: laser...@juno.com > Subject: KR> Belly Board > To: kr...@mylist.net > Message-ID: <20120413.231412.1661.378...@mailpop04.vgs.untd.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Another name is non-split flap . . . ? > > Drag flap. Dive brake. Uniflap? > > Mike > KSEE > ____________________________________________________________ > 53 Year Old Mom Looks 33 > The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4f8915b9b6bae4509fdst02vuc > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2012 23:21:01 -0700 > From: Dave_A <dave.a.kr...@gmail.com> > Subject: KR> Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <4f89174d.9030...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > My plane has the stock flaps, and they're one of the last things still > wrong with the plane. > > The flap torque-tube on the passenger side has the hole for the flap-arm > mounting screw 'oggled out', so that the flap can move up and down a > small amount despite the tube not being moved. This also results in > asymetrical flap deployment (the pilot-side flap is not loose in this > manner, so it goes down 'normally').... > > Anyone else see this, and if so, what's the best fix? > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:30:07 +0100 > From: "Peter Drake" <p...@kingsland.uk.com> > Subject: Re: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <175DC83B54A14A7BA059009B891D9B9B@PeterDrakeHP> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Dave > > Another approach is to use Ken Atkinson's Airbrake/flap system. It extends > above and below the wing, giving both airbrake effect and some flap effect. > Ken says it works very well on his KR2 . I have installed it on my KR2s, but > we have extended the centre section of the wing by 3" each side to make them > bigger. Mine hasn't flown yet so I can't vouch for their effectiveness. > See www.peterskr2s.co.uk . > > Peter Drake > Hereford UK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Anderson > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:50 AM > To: kr...@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > > Hi! Has there been debate on the KR Net about belly boards vs. flaps? > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 06:26:19 -0400 > From: "Dan Heath" <da...@windstream.net> > Subject: RE: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <000601cd1a29$08576920$19063b60$@net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have built 2 KR2, and was always dead set against flaps or speed brake ( > belly board ) because I considered them to only add complexity and weight to > the KR. However, after reading all the glowing remarks on the belly board, > and having to slip to a landing almost every time, I decided to give it a > shot on the Black Bird. The installation is documented on my web site. I > can assure you that it would have been much easier to do if I were not so > stubborn and had done it while building. I don't know how well the flaps > work, but some added lift would be a good thing, if they could provide it. > > Bottom line, I would not build a KR without one or the other. The speed > brake improved the visibility on landing so much that I use it at full > deployment on every landing. The KR slips very well, but for me, it was > always a break in the procedure and made alignment with the runway very > difficult. I could not establish a procedure for landing. The speed brake > solved that. > > I built mine using aluminum to keep it thin, but because of the weight I am > considering replacing the aluminum with carbon fiber. I just need to figure > out how thick I need to make the board to give me the same rigidity as the > aluminum. I deploy mine at 80 mph, but could probably deploy it at higher > speeds if there were a reason to do so. > > See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics > See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th > Anniversary > There is a time for building and it is over. > Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC > http://www.krbuilder.org/MyUSA/ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:22:10 -0500 > From: Larry&Sallie Flesner <fles...@frontier.com> > Subject: Re: KR> Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <98150d$822...@out01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 01:21 AM 4/14/2012, you wrote: >> The flap torque-tube on the passenger side has the hole for the flap-arm >> mounting screw 'oggled out', > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > I'm not familiar with the design. Is it actually a "screw" or a > "bolt"? Is there enough metal that you can drill to the next size > larger and re-attach? > > Larry Flesner > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:37:32 -0500 > From: "Mark Langford" <m...@n56ml.com> > Subject: Re: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <C079AA7B901043738E5435E93351A8E1@base> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Dave Anderson wrote: > >> Hi! Has there been debate on the KR Net about belly boards vs. flaps? > > I built some fairly huge split flaps for my plane, and their performance is > nothing short of awesome. I was going to gradually test them in the first > few flights, but on my second flight I was checking flaps-down stall speed, > forgot to retract them, and found myself doing something like 140 mph with > them deployed, and wondering why the plane wouldn't go any faster. Flap max > deployment speed ascertained..."CHECK!". They are strong, and after 2824 > landings, still work great. > > Despite the fact that they only deploy about 40 degrees, they drop the stall > speed by about 7-8 mph, while really putting the brakes on the landing > glide. That's probably a lot of the reason why landing my plane is so > easy...I don't spend a lot of time gliding a few inches above the runway > waiting for it to land, which is a vulnerable place to be. And given that > I fly out of a fairly short field, I also slip the crap out of it on final, > and it drops like an elevator compared to flaps up. > > At least that's what I used to think until I got the Swift. That thing > drops like a ROCK with the gear down. Landing the Swift is completely > different from the KR, as you basically get over the end of the runway, drop > the flaps, and come straight down! That's an aspect of Ken Rand's > retractable gear that never occurred to me...we whine about how KRs float > along in ground effect, but with retracts I'll bet it doesn't do that nearly > as bad. Too bad they were prone to folding, and worst of all, you have to > remember to put the gear down when landing! > > Belly boards seem to work well, but they don't drop the stall speed, which > is a nice feature to have on short runways and dead stick landings. > > More on my "barn door flaps" at http://www.n56ml.com/owings.html ... > > Mark Langford > ML at N56ML.com > website at http://www.N56ML.com > -------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 07:57:46 -0500 > From: Larry&Sallie Flesner <fles...@frontier.com> > Subject: RE: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <e24b23$7bm...@out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 10:44 PM 4/13/2012, you wrote: >> You could not pay me to do it again nor would I add it during building (what >> a waste of time, money and worst of all, weight). > Barry Kruyssen > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > Barry, > > I was surprised to read such a negative opinion on something that > works so well for me on my KR. I was also amazed to see how > complicated your system is when I looked at the photos on your web > page. I was also surprised that you seem to be getting lift from a > flat plate exposed to the slip stream. > > My "belly board" is a simple 1/4" foam board covered with a couple > layers of glass, hinged at the front, full of holes, with a single > jack screw for deployment. I once saw a belly board on another home > built that was hinged at the rear and deployed with a rope attached > to the front with a tee handle in the cockpit. The rope had knots at > several points on it length that would fit in to a notch that allowed > for several settings of deployment. > > My setup http://myplace.frontier.com/~flesner/02092593.jpg is > actually a bit heavier than necessary. I'm using a Cessna flap motor > that I got for free. If I would let loose of a few hundred dollars I > could get a jack screw and motor ( such a Vans sells for the RV) that > probably weighs half or less than the unit I'm using. > > My considered opinion is that the KR, being such a slick airframe, > needs some added drag to give it comfortable handling characteristics > in the landing mode. A good set of flaps like Mark Langford or Jeff > Scott installed, that also benefit with some lift at lower settings, > would be nice but add to the complexity of the install. If my system > experienced a total failure of some type, I'd not hesitate to build another. > > Larry Flesner > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 08:15:53 -0500 > From: Larry&Sallie Flesner <fles...@frontier.com> > Subject: KR> speed brake photos > To: kr...@mylist.net > Message-ID: <e24b23$7bm...@out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > > > There are several photos at the bottom of the web page of my speed brake > setup. > > http://myplace.frontier.com/~flesner/ > > Larry Flesner > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 09:51:10 -0400 (EDT) > From: rdrace...@aol.com > Subject: Re: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: kr...@mylist.net > Message-ID: <747c.75113927.3cbad...@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > I'm sure everyone who is interested in this discussion would love any > pictures of boards and/or flaps stowed v. deployed , how they actuate etc. > especially any that were added after build is complete. seems like it > should > be an easy addition. > > > In a message dated 4/13/2012 5:20:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > jscott.pla...@gmx.com writes: > > There have been past discussions. Belly boards provide plenty of drag, but > no lift. Flaps provide lift and drag, so can also reduce the stall speed. > However, the stock flaps per plans are too small to be very effective, > which is why you will see most KRs with drag producing devices using a belly > board. > > I did use flaps on my KR. However, the aileron bellcrank and cross cable > between the ailerons in my plane is located in front of the rear spar. With > that modification, I was able to use the trailing edge of the wing stub > from the aft edge of the rear spar to the trailing edge of the wing as a > flap > making my flaps significantly larger than the stock flaps, which makes them > very effective. More on my flaps at <http://jscott.comlu.com>. Mark L > designed split flaps for his KR. He was also very pleased with the > effectiveness of the flaps. > > Jeff Scott > Los Alamos, NM > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dave Anderson > Sent: 04/13/12 05:50 PM > To: kr...@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > > Hi! Has there been debate on the KR Net about belly boards vs. flaps? I'm > getting close to committing an starting a build. This is just one of many > questions I'm sure to have along the way. Studying plans and drawings now. > Thanks for the help so far... It is reassuring to see so much great help > available. Dave > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 10:36:44 -0700 > From: Dave_A <dave.a.kr...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: KR> Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <4f89b5ac.9090...@gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > It's a tube going span-wise, and at the end of the tube, the flap-arm > has a circular 'clamp' part going around the tube, with a single bolt > going thru the clamp and tube. > > I can drill it one-larger, but I'm looking for solutions to prevent > re-occurrance of the problem. > > On 4/14/2012 5:22 AM, Larry&Sallie Flesner wrote: >> At 01:21 AM 4/14/2012, you wrote: >>> The flap torque-tube on the passenger side has the hole for the flap-arm >>> mounting screw 'oggled out', >> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ >> >> I'm not familiar with the design. Is it actually a "screw" or a >> "bolt"? Is there enough metal that you can drill to the next size >> larger and re-attach? >> >> Larry Flesner >> >> >> _______________________________________ >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 19:32:11 +0100 > From: "Peter Drake" <p...@kingsland.uk.com> > Subject: Fw: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <8D9E3C873D434596A5E7F92AC4EAB0CA@PeterDrakeHP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > Dave > > Another approach is to use Ken Atkinson's Airbrake/flap system. It extends > above and below the wing, giving both airbrake effect and some flap effect. > Ken says it works very well on his KR2 . I have installed it on my KR2s, but > we have extended the centre section of the wing by 3" each side to make them > bigger. Mine hasn't flown yet so I can't vouch for their effectiveness. > See www.peterskr2s.co.uk . > > Peter Drake > Hereford UK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Anderson > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:50 AM > To: kr...@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > > Hi! Has there been debate on the KR Net about belly boards vs. flaps? > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:23:55 -0500 > From: Larry&Sallie Flesner <fles...@frontier.com> > Subject: Re: KR> Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <e24b23$7bo...@out02.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 12:36 PM 4/14/2012, you wrote: >> I can drill it one-larger, but I'm looking for solutions to prevent >> re-occurrance of the problem. > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > If the new connection is tight, with no movement, the problem should > not re-occur. Check the other side for any hint of movement. > > Larry Flesner > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 14:25:20 -0500 > From: Larry&Sallie Flesner <fles...@frontier.com> > Subject: Re: KR> Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <fe3ab6$7a0...@out01.roch.ny.frontiernet.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed > > At 12:36 PM 4/14/2012, you wrote: >> It's a tube going span-wise, and at the end of the tube, the flap-arm >> has a circular 'clamp' part going around the tube, with a single bolt >> going thru the clamp and tube > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > > or simply relocate the hole with the same size bolt. > > Larry "Flesner > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 13:41:27 -0600 > From: DAN INA GLANDT <dagla...@msn.com> > Subject: KR> first flight problem > To: <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <col101-w23f938a65128bff0c33fd2d4...@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I wrote earlier about the first flight of my KR2S. It took off and began > to climb rapidly. I was able to control the roll ok with the > ailerons, but I did not feel that I had comfortable control in pitch. I was > concerned about getting into pilot induced oscillations. After climbing > some, the nose settled > down, then came back up. This happened about 3 times and I reduced power and > was able to get it back on the runway. The landing > was wild to say the least. We reweighed > the airplane as flown to check the cg as it acted like a tail heavy > condition. The cg was fine. > > > > Then one night it came to me. I now believe that I built > in the problem when I made the bottom of the cowling. The engine cowling was > long because of the lighter weight of the Jabiru 2200 engine. Ahead of the > wing, the bottom of the fuselage slopes upward at about 9 deg until it ends > at the firewall. I continued this flat area at the same slope to the rear of > the engine and then added kind of a chin behind the nose bowl where the > muffler is and then tapered this chin back in width and depth. The overall > effect was a large flat area under the cowl that acts as a canard inclined > upward > and lifts the nose. The total flat area is 716 sq in and > slopes upward at 9 deg. The lever > arm of the centroid of this area is 29? from the center of the cg range. The > amount of lift on the canard is be dependent upon angle of attack and the > speed of the air hitting it (rpm). > > > > I now know why it was so > important to develop wind tunnels and train test pilots. Looking back, I > wonder why didn't I think about the effect of the cowl as now it seems > obvious, but that's the way life goes. We have to be vary careful about what > we think we know. > Dan > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:16:50 +0100 (BST) > From: Paolo Cavazzuti <sapiddomann...@yahoo.it> > Subject: KR> HI > To: kr...@mylist.net > Message-ID: > <1334434610.44609.bpmail_high_noncarr...@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > this is interesting http://www.canews15.net/biz/?news=1557635 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 21:16:50 +0100 (BST) > From: Paolo Cavazzuti <sapiddomann...@yahoo.it> > Subject: KR> HI > To: kr...@mylist.net > Message-ID: > <1334434610.44609.bpmail_high_noncarr...@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > > this is interesting http://www.canews15.net/biz/?news=1557635 > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 22:29:05 +0100 > From: "Peter Drake" <p...@kingsland.uk.com> > Subject: Fw: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > To: <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <62FB02C8FB694E9A955A94A089EF854C@PeterDrakeHP> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > Dave > > Another approach is to use Ken Atkinson's Airbrake/flap system. It extends > above and below the wing, giving both airbrake effect and some flap effect. > Ken says it works very well on his KR2 . I have installed it on my KR2s, but > we have extended the centre section of the wing by 3" each side to make them > bigger. Mine hasn't flown yet so I can't vouch for their effectiveness. > See www.peterskr2s.co.uk . > > Peter Drake > Hereford UK > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Anderson > Sent: Saturday, April 14, 2012 12:50 AM > To: kr...@mylist.net > Subject: KR> Flaps vs. Belly Board > > Hi! Has there been debate on the KR Net about belly boards vs. flaps? > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2012 20:08:06 -0700 > From: Al Hawkins <awh.hawk...@telus.net> > Subject: Re: KR> Since we're talking flaps, a flaps question. > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Message-ID: <4f8a3b96.4020...@telus.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > On my airplane I added a bushing on the passenger side of the fuselage, > basically matching the bushing built into the flap handle bracket. > I found a sintered brass bushing with an inside diameter to match the > torque tube, and made a wood block to hold it gluing it to the fuselage > side. > > Al Hawkins > On 4/13/2012 11:21 PM, Dave_A wrote: >> My plane has the stock flaps, and they're one of the last things still >> wrong with the plane. >> >> The flap torque-tube on the passenger side has the hole for the flap-arm >> mounting screw 'oggled out', so that the flap can move up and down a >> small amount despite the tube not being moved. This also results in >> asymetrical flap deployment (the pilot-side flap is not loose in this >> manner, so it goes down 'normally').... >> >> Anyone else see this, and if so, what's the best fix? >> >> _______________________________________ >> Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ >> to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net >> please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html > > End of KRnet Digest, Vol 354, Issue 104 > ***************************************
