TET wing attach fittings, only played with and some markings on them. $200 pluds shipping//Off net joel.gr...@verizon.com Joel ________________________________________ From: krnet-boun...@mylist.net [krnet-boun...@mylist.net] On Behalf Of krnet-requ...@mylist.net [krnet-requ...@mylist.net] Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:58 PM To: kr...@mylist.net Subject: KRnet Digest, Vol 354, Issue 50
Send KRnet mailing list submissions to kr...@mylist.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mylist.net/listinfo/krnet or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to krnet-requ...@mylist.net You can reach the person managing the list at krnet-ow...@mylist.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Repairman cert. (Phillip Hill) 2. Offer of a Lifetime (Ron Eason) 3. RE: Repairman cert. (Dan Heath) 4. Jabiru2200 (Peter Drake) 5. Re: Repairman cert. (Ed Janssen) 6. RE: Repairman cert. (R. Human) 7. Re: Repairman cert. (Ronald Wright) 8. (no subject) (Robert Boyd) 9. Re: RE: KR> Repairman cert. (phill.h...@gmail.com) 10. Re: Repairman cert. (Jeff Scott) 11. Re: Repairman cert. (Ed Janssen) 12. RE: Repairman cert. (Dan Heath) 13. Re: RE: KR> Repairman cert. (phill.h...@gmail.com) 14. Re: Repairman cert. (Larry&Sallie Flesner) 15. RE: (no subject) (joemals...@charter.net) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 23:51:46 -0600 From: Phillip Hill <phill.h...@gmail.com> Subject: KR> Repairman cert. To: KR List <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <CAJeERg31daDksoz1wcvOzWgifyTeNRH+EhLbsvV7x03dwVX=b...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If you buy an I'm finished project, can you still get a repairman cert for the plane or are they strictly only granting the cert to the original builder? Also does it make a difference if the project already has an "N" number? phill ------------------------------ Message: 2 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:31:11 -0600 From: Ron Eason <reaso...@aol.com> Subject: KR> Offer of a Lifetime To: "kr...@mylist.net" <kr...@mylist.net> Cc: Ron Eason <ron.ea...@bausch.com> Message-ID: <f4f18fa1-2335-4414-8862-ab16c9be8...@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Is anyone interested in finishing my fathers KR2 that lives fairly close to the Kansas city area?? There are too many features to list but suffice it to say it is fabulous & workmanship is superb & always kept dry. Dad was a aeronautical engineer and spend his career contracting with the likes of Boeing, McDonnell Douglas, General Dynamics, NASA, the US govt & others...Simply put, He knew what he was doing! It is 75% done with 75% left to go :) All fabrication is done including wings. All major items have been purchased including engine (VW 1835 turbo w/ dual ignition, ceramic coated, balanced & dyno'ed,) Instruments are bought too. Interior & paint is all that is left to buy. The assembly & finish is what is left. It is a tricycle retract with very low weight pneumatic cylinders. Also dual axis electric trim & split flaps. HERES THE DEAL: I do not want any money, just finish it & fly it. All I want out of this is the opportunity to fly it when I'm in a position to do so & to live close enough to KC where that is a reasonable option. Depending on your motivation, in months...not years...your livin the dream! If someone has their act together & gets going, you even have a shot at getting an anniversary plaque at the gathering! It doesn't get much better than this guys. My contact info is below. I need to know if someone is interested fairly soon. Also, Im planning on going to the gathering myself. I would love to take pictures of it doing a "Langford slip landing" there :) Thanks for your consideration. Best, Ron Eason Jr Bausch & Lomb Surgical Equipment Specialist Tel: 816-806-0911 ron.ea...@bausch.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 05:36:40 -0500 From: "Dan Heath" <da...@windstream.net> Subject: RE: KR> Repairman cert. To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <000501ccec96$de8e0280$9baa0780$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" You have to prove that you built at least 51% of the plane to get the cert. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th Anniversary There is a time for building and it is over. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC -----Original Message----- If you buy an I'm finished project, can you still get a repairman cert for the plane ------------------------------ Message: 4 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 13:14:57 -0000 From: "Peter Drake" <p...@kingsland.uk.com> Subject: KR> Jabiru2200 To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <DBD5EC0BDCB949A1B9A32491A0B7DD74@PETER> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Is there anyone who has installed a Jabiru2200 engine in a KR2s out there who might have some performance data available? Thanks Peter Drake Hereford UK -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. We are a community of 7 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 3430 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len The Professional version does not have this message ------------------------------ Message: 5 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:01:47 -0600 From: "Ed Janssen" <ejans...@chipsnet.com> Subject: Re: KR> Repairman cert. To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <47069FCE40C8428BABA5CDFBCD9F1695@DadPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Phill, I assume you mean "unfinished" instead of "I'm finished". If you can convince the FAA that you built at least 51%, you have a good shot at getting the repairman cert. for the plane. Don't give up if the first FSDO office you go to turns you down. We shouldn't have to shop around, but they HAVE been known to differ in interpretations of the regulations. Ed -----Original Message----- From: Phillip Hill Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:51 PM To: KR List Subject: KR> Repairman cert. If you buy an I'm finished project, can you still get a repairman cert for the plane or are they strictly only granting the cert to the original builder? Also does it make a difference if the project already has an "N" number? phill _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 6 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:54:32 -0600 From: "R. Human" <rahu...@peoplepc.com> Subject: RE: KR> Repairman cert. To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <000001ccecc3$46b078d0$d4116a70$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Ed and Dan wrote: If you can convince the FAA that you built at least 51%.... Actually this is a misnomer - the regs state that at least 51% of the aircraft must be amateur built (AB). That 51% can be built my numerous hands and that's why the FAA published the Advisory Circular 20-27G in 2009 which includes a checklist for determining what was AB built and what was commercially built. I did some investigating on this last year and touched based with the local FSDO and they said they would use that checklist to help determine (1) if it could be licensed as an AB and (2) help them to make a determination if a repairman's certificate can be issued. I think if you bought a 90% or better project you could still obtain a repair certificate, if one hasn't been issued and if you can convince the FSDO that you know enough about the structure and operating systems to determine if is in a condition for safe flight. I think a good approach is to develop a checklist of the items you plan on checking when you do your annual and present it to the FAA for review and comment. A repair certificate is nice to have but a lack of one is not a show stopper. Any A&P can sign off the annual condition inspection - I think after the A&P looks over your shoulder while you are performing the inspection and you satisfy him he won't have a problem signing your logbook. Rick Human N202RH Houston, Tx ------------------------------ Message: 7 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 07:58:11 -0800 (PST) From: Ronald Wright <ronwrig...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: KR> Repairman cert. To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <1329407891.80715.yahoomail...@web180416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Lots of people get N numbers before they finish a project. Not a major issue but you'll need photos and builders log showing what you did to finish the project to confirm the 51%.. You might want to talk to your FSDO before buying it and possibly show them what stage the build is now.. Ron From: Ed Janssen <ejans...@chipsnet.com> To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 9:01 AM Subject: Re: KR> Repairman cert. Phill, I assume you mean "unfinished" instead of "I'm finished". If you can convince the FAA that you built at least 51%, you have a good shot at getting the repairman cert. for the plane. Don't give up if the first FSDO office you go to turns you down. We shouldn't have to shop around, but they HAVE been known to differ in interpretations of the regulations. Ed -----Original Message----- From: Phillip Hill Sent: Wednesday, February 15, 2012 11:51 PM To: KR List Subject: KR> Repairman cert. If you buy an I'm finished project, can you still get a repairman cert for the plane or are they strictly only granting the cert to the original builder? Also does it make a difference if the project already has an "N" number? phill _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 8 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 12:22:05 -0500 From: Robert Boyd <ifly...@gmail.com> Subject: KR> (no subject) To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <CAOS9denv70aUnCnHx2ZEa7S1m7hFtrnqiO+Hzco=1gf8q6m...@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The KR2S project that I recently purchased is set up as conventional gear using the Diehl main gear. The fuselage is still in the boat stage and nothing has been done with the stub wings yet. Just Spars sticking out on both sides of the fuselage. My question is, how difficult would it be for me to convert this to a tail dragger? Could I just flip the current landing gear legs around and re install them on the leading edge of the front spar and just remove the nose gear. I would like to use the stub wings for fuel tanks and like the looks of the tail wheel set up. Any opinions or advice would be appreciated. thanks Bob in Frazeysburg Ohio ------------------------------ Message: 9 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:35:50 +0000 From: phill.h...@gmail.com Subject: Re: RE: KR> Repairman cert. To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <bcaec517cc3e630ca304b9184...@google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Yeah, that's the way I read it but I wasn't sure if it was just me or not :) You know what they say, the right way, the wrong way and the FAA way. I was more concerned with buying an unfinished hand built project than one containing a bunch of premade components or prefab parts, since I'm looking for one to take over myself. Just trying to find some answers to some of my questions ahead of time. I gotta wrap my head around the process etc in order to be comfortable with the idea. > If you can convince the FAA that you built at least 51%.... > Actually this is a misnomer - the regs state that at least 51% of the > aircraft must be amateur built (AB). That 51% can be built my numerous > hands > and that's why the FAA published the Advisory Circular 20-27G in 2009 > which > includes a checklist for determining what was AB built and what was > commercially built. I did some investigating on this last year and touched > based with the local FSDO and they said they would use that checklist to > help determine (1) if it could be licensed as an AB and (2) help them to > make a determination if a repairman's certificate can be issued. I think > if > you bought a 90% or better project you could still obtain a repair > certificate, if one hasn't been issued and if you can convince the FSDO > that > you know enough about the structure and operating systems to determine if > is > in a condition for safe flight. I think a good approach is to develop a > checklist of the items you plan on checking when you do your annual and > present it to the FAA for review and comment. True, just would be nice not to have the added level of complexity, I don't think "complexity" is the word I was looking for but that's what came out of the keyboard. > A repair certificate is nice to have but a lack of one is not a show > stopper. Any A&P can sign off the annual condition inspection - I think > after the A&P looks over your shoulder while you are performing the > inspection and you satisfy him he won't have a problem signing your > logbook. ------------------------------ Message: 10 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:01:35 -0500 From: "Jeff Scott" <jscott.pla...@gmx.com> Subject: Re: KR> Repairman cert. To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <20120216210135.282...@gmx.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Phil, Lots of folks aren't going to agree with this statement, but you do NOT have to convince the FAA that you built 51% of the plane. The plane has to be 51% amateur built to qualify as an Amateur Built Experimental Aircraft. Doesn't matter whether it was you or someone else that built it as long as it was 51% amateur built. Quoted directly from the FAA Web site: "You may obtain a repairman certificate for your own amateur-built aircraft if you built the major portion of the aircraft." Note the lack of any specific percentage of construction. Most people tend to interpret the "Major Portion" statement by painting it with the same broad brush as the 51% Amateur Built Airworthiness Rule. They are not the same. Getting the Airworthiness Inspection and getting the Repairman Certificate are two related, but completely separate events, although the FSDO may want a statement or recommendation from the DAR since he is the one that just spent a couple of hours with you and the plane. You have to convince the FAA that you participated in the majority of the tasks of building the plane. So, the question is how do you do that? First off, you need to have some photos of you working on the unfinished plane. Anymore, without photographic evidence of you working on an unfinished aircraft, you are not likely to receive the Repairman Certificate. Additionally, you need to convince the DAR that you were involved in enough of the construction that you know the plane well enough to do the inspections and maintenance on the aircraft. The local FSDO will likely want a letter from the DAR stating that it is his opinion that the your were involved in the majority of the work. Another clear distinction is that the local FSDO, not the DAR, is the agency that will make the recommendation to the FAA in Oklahoma City that they issue you a Repairman Certificate. It's really all about you convincing the DAR and FSDO that you are knowledgeable enough to inspect and maintain the aircraft so it can be operated safely. That's the way the "three weeks to taxi" outfits work. You drill, deburr, and fit a hole on a panel, then a team does the rest of the panel while you move on to the next task. You drive a rivet on that panel, then a team of people drive the rest while you once again move on towards the next task. However, you are involved in the majority of the tasks necessary to build that plane. 3 weeks of 14 hour days later, you have an aircraft that is ready or close to ready for taxi that you can take home and finish. You will also get the Repaiman Certificate since you were involved in the majority of the tasks. Another method that is used when you want an aircraft built for you is a partnership. You form a partnership with a build shop. They build the plane. Anyone in the partnership can be designated as the one to recieve the repairman's certificate. As long as you were involved enough to demonstrate significant knowledge, the FAA will grant you the reapirman's certificate. I personally know where this was done with an acquaintance that had a Lancair IV-P built. However, this is the type of operation that has caused much closer scrutiny of the Amateur Built rules and is causing all of us to show move proof of our work. I have personally bought and finished 3 Amateur Built project planes, the last one being my SuperCub clone completed in June. I was issued the Repairman Certificate for the first two. I could have had the third as well, but since I now have my A&P license, I didn't see the point in jumping through the hoops for the FAA. Having been through this a few times, I can tell you that when you apply for the Repairman Certificate, it is completely up to whoever you get at FSDO as to how it will be handled. The first was a snap. I called the local FSDO and talked to an agent, filled out the papers, mailed it to the agent at FSDO, then the certificate showed up in the mail. The next time, I happened to get one of those bad apples that makes the FAA famous. He was going to make me play his game. I filled out the application exactly the same, which he rejected out of hand. I was forced to provide information completely unrelated to aircraft or aviation to satisfy this charactor before he would forward a recommendation to OK City to issue the Repairman Certificate. So, now we have this nebulous question about "What constitutes the "Majority" of the build tasks?" The FAA has a checklist you can go through to determine whether the plane is 51% amateur built. (It is in AC 20-27G, Appendix 8, form 8000-38.) You could run through this form to see how close you may or may not be. The answer may surprise you. However, the "Majority" of tasks is really a bit more nebulous and FSDO has the latitude to interpret it as they see fit. It really comes down to you convincing the DAR and the FSDO representative you talk to on the phone that you built some of the plane, and that you know it well enough to maintain it properly. Jeff Scott Los Alamos, NM A&P builder of N1213W KR-2S N1317C Avid Flyer N143W Wag Aero SuperCub ----- Original Message ----- From: phill.h...@gmail.com Sent: 02/16/12 10:35 AM To: KRnet Subject: Re: RE: KR> Repairman cert. Yeah, that's the way I read it but I wasn't sure if it was just me or not :) You know what they say, the right way, the wrong way and the FAA way. I was more concerned with buying an unfinished hand built project than one containing a bunch of premade components or prefab parts, since I'm looking for one to take over myself. Just trying to find some answers to some of my questions ahead of time. I gotta wrap my head around the process etc in order to be comfortable with the idea. ------------------------------ Message: 11 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 16:58:13 -0600 From: "Ed Janssen" <ejans...@chipsnet.com> Subject: Re: KR> Repairman cert. To: "KRnet" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <8C3C3E3A0BA04B38915EB2699E954A14@DadPC> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Phill, If one of the main reasons for buying the plane is to be able to do your own annual inspection, I would contact a FSDO before you plunk the money down. According to the Advisory circular Rick refers to, you will need to convince the FAA that you are the "primary builder" before being issued a repairman certificate. "Primary builder" is about as vague as saying "51%". This allows the FAA to interpret as they see fit. Ed -----Original Message----- From: phill.h...@gmail.com Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 11:35 AM To: KRnet Subject: Re: RE: KR> Repairman cert. Yeah, that's the way I read it but I wasn't sure if it was just me or not :) You know what they say, the right way, the wrong way and the FAA way. I was more concerned with buying an unfinished hand built project than one containing a bunch of premade components or prefab parts, since I'm looking for one to take over myself. Just trying to find some answers to some of my questions ahead of time. I gotta wrap my head around the process etc in order to be comfortable with the idea. > If you can convince the FAA that you built at least 51%.... > Actually this is a misnomer - the regs state that at least 51% of the > aircraft must be amateur built (AB). That 51% can be built my numerous > hands > and that's why the FAA published the Advisory Circular 20-27G in 2009 > which > includes a checklist for determining what was AB built and what was > commercially built. I did some investigating on this last year and touched > based with the local FSDO and they said they would use that checklist to > help determine (1) if it could be licensed as an AB and (2) help them to > make a determination if a repairman's certificate can be issued. I think > if > you bought a 90% or better project you could still obtain a repair > certificate, if one hasn't been issued and if you can convince the FSDO > that > you know enough about the structure and operating systems to determine if > is > in a condition for safe flight. I think a good approach is to develop a > checklist of the items you plan on checking when you do your annual and > present it to the FAA for review and comment. True, just would be nice not to have the added level of complexity, I don't think "complexity" is the word I was looking for but that's what came out of the keyboard. > A repair certificate is nice to have but a lack of one is not a show > stopper. Any A&P can sign off the annual condition inspection - I think > after the A&P looks over your shoulder while you are performing the > inspection and you satisfy him he won't have a problem signing your > logbook. _______________________________________ Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ Message: 12 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:13:45 -0500 From: "Dan Heath" <da...@windstream.net> Subject: RE: KR> Repairman cert. To: "'KRnet'" <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <000901cced00$a1e36900$e5aa3b00$@net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" What the FAA Inspector had me do on my first KR, a project which I purchased and finished, was to get a letter from the buyer saying that I had done at least 51 percent of the building on it. I think this is in line with what Jeff stated, but you can never tell what the FAA will do, especially in light of the not-to-distant flack over the 51% rule. See N64KR at http://KRBuilder.org - Then click on the pics See you at the 2012 - KR Gathering in Mt. Vernon, Il ? MVN ? 40th Anniversary There is a time for building and it is over. Daniel R. Heath - Lexington, SC ------------------------------ Message: 13 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:41:18 +0000 From: phill.h...@gmail.com Subject: Re: RE: KR> Repairman cert. To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <14dae934078f65334004b91d5...@google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed; delsp=yes Thanks for all the input. Having the repairman's certificate is not essential for me, just would be nice to have. I was wanting information about how it worked in the "real world". There are a lot of theories, that's for sure. I guess I'll call them up and get their take on it. Phill ------------------------------ Message: 14 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 17:50:33 -0600 From: Larry&Sallie Flesner <fles...@frontier.com> Subject: Re: KR> Repairman cert. To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <24910e$7g5...@out01.dlls.pa.frontiernet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:58 AM 2/16/2012, you wrote: >You might want to talk to your FSDO before buying it and possibly >show them what stage the build is now.. > >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ The one thing you don't want to do is buy a completed project and then try to convince the "FAA you built it. I once heard a DAR or FAA rep say someone tried that on them and they were going to "throw the book" at the guy. Check with your local FSDO and play it honest. The price of getting busted would not be worth the cost. Play it straight and they will probably work with you, unless you get one of those "bad apples" that Jeff talked about. Larry Flesner ------------------------------ Message: 15 List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 21:32:50 -0500 (EST) From: joemals...@charter.net Subject: RE: KR> (no subject) To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> Message-ID: <50ec7af5.2e2f3f.1358927a3c0.webtop...@charter.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=no Bob, yes you can just move the main gear to the front of the spar to convert to a tail dragger. I would be interested in the nose gear if you want to part with it. Joe. On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Robert Boyd wrote: > The KR2S project that I recently purchased is set up as conventional > gear using the Diehl main gear. The fuselage is still in the boat > stage and nothing has been done with the stub wings yet. Just Spars > sticking out on both sides of the fuselage. My question is, how > difficult would it be for me to convert this to a tail dragger? Could > I just flip the current landing gear legs around and re install them > on the leading edge of the front spar and just remove the nose gear. I > would like to use the stub wings for fuel tanks and like the looks of > the tail wheel set up. > Any opinions or advice would be appreciated. > thanks > Bob in Frazeysburg Ohio > > _______________________________________ > Search the KRnet Archives at http://mylist.net/private/krnet/ to > UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ See KRnet list details at http://www.krnet.org/instructions.html End of KRnet Digest, Vol 354, Issue 50 **************************************