I think the reason it's challenging, and that you're seeing different tools for different systems, is that each time you want to model something you have to make sure you can translate the model into the underlying substrates clearly and precisely. To date, Juju hasn't expressed a model on the process container world because Juju's model is built upon a set of promises that it can make sure each supported substrate can fulfill. OpenStack, public cloud, MAAS, etc all have these nice primitive ideas that are similar enough that a model can be expressed and then put into place onto those different substrates but the promises of the model still hold true.
As we've looked at expanding the model to support things like process containers there are challenges and opportunities. The immutability of the containers breaks a bunch of Juju promises, such as the adaptability when a relation is made between applications. There's work that needs to be done such that a model can either make clear the differences (say you can model applications as well as process containers as different ideas in the model) or you need to update and close the gaps between the substrates. I think you're right on point and that we're aligned on the idea that you construct a model of what you want and then allow the system to go and make it reality. I think the trouble that we're currently in, and that you're finding as you look at options, is that there's a gap at the moment that needs to be closed. Folks are trying to say that we're all techies and love using the right tool for the right job, and currently there are some things that go great into process containers, some things that do better in machine containers, and some things that really want to be on raw hardware to operate at their best. Over time we hope Juju will expand to help define the model across each of those scenarios. On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 12:13 PM Giuseppe Attardi <giuseppe.atta...@garr.it> wrote: > OK, but since I have been asked to help prepare a roadmap for the next 3 > years for the evolution of cloud services and infrastructure for the > Italian public administrations, I need to have both a clear picture of the > current situation and to make an educated guess at the most promising > technology directions. > > My feeling is that one should promote a declarative modelling approach to > cloud deployment, where one specifies the architecture model he wants to > achieve, not how. > A workflow engine takes care of generating an actual deployment plan that > leads from the current to the desired state. > Google director of network architecture, Bikash Koley, explains in this > video why they use this approach in managing their world-wide network > infrastructure (aka zero-touch networking): > https://youtu.be/5N7QS5vP68o?t=13m01s > The approach is quite similar to Juju for cloud applications. > Openshift uses deployment on containers apparently in a similar fashion. > > One really wants to hide the details of the underlying IaaS infrastructure > to users making deployments. > Hence OpenStack could still be the platform foundation, but developers and > users should deal with declarative deployment models and tools. > > An automated deployment engine based a declarative modelling for a > container platfrom seems what one should want. > > — > > On 27 giu 2017, at 09:39, Tom Barber <t...@spicule.co.uk> wrote: > > Hey Giuseppe > > Having worked in the data sector for a while now whilst keeping an eye on > container tech, for now at least I'd keep deploying data services to > baremetal for a number of reasons, docker container discovery for one. Juju > hadoop on services vs hadoop on containers is a bit of a no-brainer > currently. That said of course data on containers support well improve but > for now I'd stick to the basics. > > My 2 cents. > > Tom > > On 27 Jun 2017 8:32 am, "Giuseppe Attardi" <giuseppe.atta...@garr.it> > wrote: > > Some Italian public administration are considering purchasing cloud > services for Big Data analytics deployed on Openshift. > How this solution would compare with using a Kubernetes cluster deployed > through Juju? > More in general, what is the strategic outlook of container platforms vs > virtualization platforms? > Are the former ones going to overcome the latter? > > -- > > -- > Juju mailing list > Juju@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/juju > > > > -- > Juju mailing list > Juju@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: > https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/juju >
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