Hey Zeev, > Am 09.08.2019 um 19:44 schrieb Zeev Suraski <vsura...@gmail.com>: > > On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 7:44 PM Dan Ackroyd <dan...@basereality.com> wrote: > >> On Fri, 9 Aug 2019 at 17:10, Zeev Suraski <vsura...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> we’re discussing whether it makes sense to introduce a sister language >> to PHP. >> >> Zeev also wrote: >>> It will take no additional resources, >> >> First, those two statements are mutually exclusive. >> > > Before I move on, I have to say I admire your level of confidence. I can > only dream of having something even remotely close. > > You're talking to a person that co-wrote the PHP engine, twice, that led > parts of a 3rd engine rewrite, that helped lead (although at a hands-off > manner) a 4th engine rewrite, that wrote OPcache, and a bunch of other > things - and yet you still feel confident to tell me that I have no idea > what I'm talking - when talking about precisely that.
It's clearly quite a feat, your contributions to PHP 3 and PHP 4. This does not give you any authority now. You are not a current active code maintainer. I won't deny you the respect for your former achievements - but as it is now, you are - not to sound harsh, but just stating the fact - a single person here with opinions (like we all). From my perspective at least (and others I've talked to), you are writing like you would have a leadership position which you do not have. I honestly think you should back off for some time. I definitely appreciate everyone sharing their opinions ... More on that below. Back to the main question: I think I have worked much more recently than you actively on this project and I can tell you that Dan is absolutely right here. > If I were in your place, I'd be wondering "am I missing something?" and > probably try to ask some clarifying questions before telling that other guy > that he's clueless and/or lying. Even if I disagreed with that person on > virtually everything. I cannot tell - I have no way to analyze your brain - it seems though, you are thinking to know more than you actually do. Maybe it's wrong, maybe it's right. Dan is not necessarily trying to be disrespectful here, he just simply does not add the disclaimer "it seems to me". It is his perspective he is sharing, and I must say it overlaps with mine. > With that out of the way - the very short version is that there's nothing > mutually exclusive about these statements. In fact, saying that means that > you really do not understand what the idea is. There could be several > reasons for that - but I'm willing to take the blame as perhaps I didn't > make it entirely clear. I'll try to remedy that separately from this email. > > Second, the idea of keeping PHP as it currently is, and pushing people >> who want to evolve the language out from core PHP to make their own >> language, is effectively telling those people to make a fork of the >> project. >> > > This is another illustration, an even clearer one - that you simply don't > understand what the idea is at any meaningful level. Here too - I'll take > the blame. I'm going to try and fix that. > > This is not an appropriate thing to suggest. At the very least there's an additional maintenance burden (let alone implementing everything we'd like to change). >> Please stop trying to regain control of the PHP project either through >> direct threats or through telling people that they should fork off the >> project if they want to evolve PHP. >> >> I strongly feel the conversations you are provoking on internals are >> not productive or healthy for the project. >> > > Dan, don't get this the wrong way, but if anybody is behaving > inappropriately, that would be you. You repeatedly talk to me in a > condescending (text) tone, you're virtually always interpreting my words in > the most negative and malicious way possible (and beyond), and you don't > shy away from doing that publicly. You're being repeatedly disrespectful. > > Adding > >> cheers > > at the end does not change that.. > > I don't address you in such a disrespectful manner, neither should you. > Please stop. I'm not going to defend Dan's tone here, but let me agree with what he's saying. You are being divisive, intentionally or not (I assume the latter), whether you're aware or not. Let me, at this place, kindly ask you to not repeatedly engage in a same discussion. Have your voice heard, once. There are a lot of topics where you state something (with content going also towards other tangents, discussing voting systems) and then the topic starts going off a tangent. This is annoying. I want to read the technical points. And then form my opinion. Not find long discussions about anything else or backs and forths not leading to any result or providing more technical context. Get a chat room to discuss process issues. Don't always be the one who presents the ideas. You ARE being viewed as controversial. You bringing proposals up is not going to be a productive discussion. Let others be your voice. To sum it up, again: please just back off. Thanks. > Zeev Off topic, but just to state it once officially (please don't reply to this): I support introduction of a code of conduct. Bob
